Tesla in the news...

[disneysteve]

EV's had a heck of a Q2, which is a stark contrast to certain headlines and political points of view that EV's are dead.

Several car makers have scaled back their plans to expand EV production because the demand simply isn't where they anticipated it would be.

A recent global poll found that 46% of current EV owners in the US are "very likely" to go back to a gas vehicle on their next purchase. Worldwide, the average figure was 29%. The biggest reason given was lack of charging infrastructure, which is what I've said all along. EVs are a perfectly good idea, but until there is a charging station on every corner like there is a gas station now, adoption is going to be impaired. There also needs to be a solution for charging for folks who live in the city and in apartment and condo buildings as well as in commercial areas like shopping centers and malls and theaters and downtown business districts.

I am not at all anti-EVs. I just think they're not ready for prime time quite yet.

[ua_guy]

Several car makers have scaled back their plans to expand EV production because the demand simply isn't where they anticipated it would be.

A recent global poll found that 46% of current EV owners in the US are "very likely" to go back to a gas vehicle on their next purchase. Worldwide, the average figure was 29%. The biggest reason given was lack of charging infrastructure, which is what I've said all along. EVs are a perfectly good idea, but until there is a charging station on every corner like there is a gas station now, adoption is going to be impaired. There also needs to be a solution for charging for folks who live in the city and in apartment and condo buildings as well as in commercial areas like shopping centers and malls and theaters and downtown business districts.

I am not at all anti-EVs. I just think they're not ready for prime time quite yet.

I think EV works in the current state for people who wish to make it work. I also agree the current state will look nothing like the future state when charging is widely expanded and EV's are a much bigger slice of the market. Another way to interpret the study is that most people (54%) wouldn't consider ICE for their next purchase but would stick with an EV. Of the 46 that would consider ICE for their next purchase, the largest factor is something that is rapidly changing. It's not the car, it's not the price, it's not the politics: It's simply the ability to plug it in and rely on it for long distance travel. But I also wish the study explained the responses a little better, and clarified the questions they asked. Are people considering ICE for their next purchase because they plan to keep their EV? Are they adding a car? Are they replacing an existing ICE, like a pickup, for towing?

We are in the 54% who will consider an EV for our next purchase. Our current EV has been great. As an enthusiast I'm eagerly awaiting future models because CAFE numbers do not apply to EV's, and that unlocks a lot of variety in form factor, styling, and available performance. We also own gas cars and have no plans to abandon them.

When all the bad news about EV sales was circulating last year, those in the know called it circumstantial and not an indicator that EV's were dying. Supplier issues, retooling, model changeovers. Companies like GM are delivering on their plans now. Kia started delivering. All the big automakers saw really good EV growth in Q2 and year over year. In the same timeframe, automakers are dialing in their EV strategy. Not only have they formed pacts to adhere to CAFE standards for ICE vehicles as a business practice regardless of future changes in political winds or regulation, but they are finding that an EV portfolio alongside ICE can help them meet CAFE standards and extend the lifecycle of their ICE business.

[disneysteve]

I think EV works in the current state for people who wish to make it work.

Agreed, but most people don't want to have to jump through hoops or detour from their desired routes in order to accommodate the needs of an EV.

the largest factor is something that is rapidly changing. It's not the car, it's not the price, it's not the politics: It's simply the ability to plug it in and rely on it for long distance travel.

Absolutely. The infrastructure is the big issue, and that's the catch-22. Companies don't want to pour boatloads of money into building out the infrastructure until the demand is there, but the demand won't come until the infrastructure is already in place.

As an enthusiast

Early adopters of any new technology are typically enthusiasts willing to deal with the hassles that come with new technology. The average user isn't. They just want things to work seamlessly. We're not there yet with EVs.

EVs will eventually take over the majority of the market share. I just think that's going to take a lot longer than some expected or had hoped for.

[james.hendrickson]

All - just piping up with a quick comment here. One limiting factor maybe charging stations.

For example, I was driving in a rural part of the Oregon coast this weekend. I stopped at a gas station in a small rural town - and it had a sign that said - "no gas for 25 miles", which was basically correct. The station had NO EV charging ports. I thought to myself "wow, if I had an EV and my charge was low, I'd be pretty much out of luck if I were driving along that part of the country".

So - Yes, EVs are less expensive to own and operate than traditional motor vehicles, but the charging station infrastructure still isn't there.

[disneysteve]

I stopped at a gas station in a small rural town - and it had a sign that said - "no gas for 25 miles", which was basically correct. The station had NO EV charging ports.

Yep. Most smaller gas stations don't have the space or need to install EV chargers. Bigger places like Wawa and Royal Farms and Sheetz and Bucees can do it but the little roadside place with 2 pumps or the corner station in the city can't.

[ua_guy]

All - just piping up with a quick comment here. One limiting factor maybe charging stations.

For example, I was driving in a rural part of the Oregon coast this weekend. I stopped at a gas station in a small rural town - and it had a sign that said - "no gas for 25 miles", which was basically correct. The station had NO EV charging ports. I thought to myself "wow, if I had an EV and my charge was low, I'd be pretty much out of luck if I were driving along that part of the country".

So - Yes, EVs are less expensive to own and operate than traditional motor vehicles, but the charging station infrastructure still isn't there.

Part of the issue is stopping at a rural gas station and expecting an EV charger to be there if you arrive on empty/ (low state of charge). Just about every EV has connectivity and GPS guidance which will show you available chargers and their status, how much juice it will take to get there. Sometimes EV chargers are located in unlikely spots.

No, EV travel isn't completely mindless, and I know it needs to get there before it's "ready" for the average consumer. If you're going somewhere new or plan to head in "a direction" for a day out, you just need to identify charging spots where you may need them, before you head out. It isn't that hard, but it is one extra step.

[MonkeyMama]

So - Yes, EVs are less expensive to own and operate than traditional motor vehicles, but the charging station infrastructure still isn't there.

It depends where you live and where you are driving. I've had no problems with infrastructure.

The gas station measure is meaningless. No one would stop at a gas station to charge an EV. On road trips we stop at hotels and restaurants, for the most part. Charge where we are going to be. (There's a stretch of freeway that lacks gas stations, on my son's college route. But the EV charger infrastructure is very *shrugs* in comparison. More chargers that we would ever need.)

Around the time we bought our EV, a gas station we frequently stop at put in an EV charger. We always stopped here between home and visiting family 120 miles away. I thought that might be convenient. Fast forward 4 years and we have never stopped there. It just wouldn't make any sense, and the gas station chargers are by far the most expensive. I can see that was a 'gas car mindset' when I thought that charger might actually be useful.

[bjl584]

I've seen some charge stations at local grocery stores and at the mall. Beyond that, I wouldn't know where to find them, mainly because I'm not looking for them.
They may very well be plentiful, but my truck isn't an EV, so I'm more focused on where to get fuel.

How long does it take to charge an EV at a charge station?
I'd think that in our instant gratification society, that the push will be to charge up an EV as fast as someone could pump a tank of gas.

[disneysteve]

How long does it take to charge an EV at a charge station?
I'd think that in our instant gratification society, that the push will be to charge up an EV as fast as someone could pump a tank of gas.

That's another issue. I can fill my tank and be back on the road in under 5 minutes. Charging an EV means planning extra time into the route until chargers are ubiquitous and located everywhere and anywhere. If we could charge when we stop for lunch, that would be perfect, but that doesn't exist yet in most places. If we're driving NJ to FL, it's already an 18-hour trip. I wouldn't want to tack on another 2+ hours for charging along the way.

[ua_guy]

I've seen some charge stations at local grocery stores and at the mall. Beyond that, I wouldn't know where to find them, mainly because I'm not looking for them.
They may very well be plentiful, but my truck isn't an EV, so I'm more focused on where to get fuel.

How long does it take to charge an EV at a charge station?
I'd think that in our instant gratification society, that the push will be to charge up an EV as fast as someone could pump a tank of gas.

Charge time is going to depend on the charger and the car. On a DC fast charger, <30 minutes is a good measure to bring you to a full charge. That's definitely "charge while grabbing a bite to eat" territory.

In the current state of charging, and when time is an issue, it's not required to fully charge the car. It's fine to just add the miles you need. For example, if I'm 100 miles from home and just need enough juice to get me to where I can plug in at the house, I'm only going to add, say, 150 miles worth of juice. The car gives you all this information while it's charging - range in miles, time left to charge to your target percentage, charging rate.

Charger squatting at busy locations is not very common. In most places, if you leave your car plugged in once it's done charging and after a few minute grace period, you'll get dinged for every minute you sit there and it's much more expensive than charging. So folks are incentivized to be on time and move quickly.

[disneysteve]

Charger squatting at busy locations is not very common. In most places, if you leave your car plugged in once it's done charging and after a few minute grace period, you'll get dinged for every minute you sit there and it's much more expensive than charging. So folks are incentivized to be on time and move quickly.

I get why they do that, but that's also really annoying. So if we stop for dinner on the road and plug in when we get there, I need to interrupt my meal in 30 minutes to go out and move the car? If we check into a hotel late and I just want to shower and go to sleep, I can't because I need to go back out when the car is charged and move it?

You're not making this sound more appealing.

[MonkeyMama]

Charger squatting at busy locations is not very common. In most places, if you leave your car plugged in once it's done charging and after a few minute grace period, you'll get dinged for every minute you sit there and it's much more expensive than charging. So folks are incentivized to be on time and move quickly.

I personally have never experienced this. I have certainly heard of or seen idle charging on chargers, but have never stayed long enough for it to matter. Hotels don't do this (obviously you'd want to charge overnight), and slower chargers don't tend to do this. & we only use fast chargers on road trips for the most part. It's not like people just leave their car sitting for a couple of hours, while trying to get from Point A to Point B. My ignorance on this front could also be having a slower charging car. I have seen people hogging up chargers, but it's not a common thing.

I do think things will circle back around to gas stations. 20 minute charges were a thing a couple of years ago. I have no idea if things have improved from there or how long it will take for charging to get faster. But I think if you are talking 15 minutes or less, might as well just stop at a more traditional gas station. Lord knows I've waited 10 minutes in line for a bathroom at a gas station. If it's going to take any longer than that, rather stop somewhere with more space to walk around, and might as well find some nicer bathrooms (like at the outlet malls we frequently charge at). Anyway, I do think gas stations will have their place (re: electric chargers). Probably soon. On the interstate, anyway.

We've already figured out that some of our 'older and more slowly charging car' habits will be more problematic when we eventually upgrade to a faster charging vehicle. & I expect this is why UA Guy has some more 'idle' charging hassles than we have. That said, then we just go back to the old ways of making fuel and food stops separate. So it's probably moot. & we still just charge at home 99% of the time. Which makes it a little extra moot. (There is also really no time constraints with slower Level 2 chargers. Still plenty of opportunity to just charge while running errands or having a leisurely dinner out.)

[kork13]

If I were to bet, I think it'll turn out something similar to what we have in Japan. Instead of the basic rest stops of US interstates (nothing but bathrooms & vending machines, maybe a small park), every 50-ish kmon Japanese highways have "rest stops" (I forget what they call them) that a have everything from bathrooms & large parks/playgrounds to multiple restaurants & convenience stores. They also all have a line of 10-20 EV chargers. It would be very easy for someone to pull up, plug in, and stay for an hour or so shopping for snacks & eating a decent meal, and all that while the car charges.

[disneysteve]

If I were to bet, I think it'll turn out something similar to what we have in Japan. Instead of the basic rest stops of US interstates (nothing but bathrooms & vending machines, maybe a small park), every 50-ish kmon Japanese highways have "rest stops" (I forget what they call them) that a have everything from bathrooms & large parks/playgrounds to multiple restaurants & convenience stores. They also all have a line of 10-20 EV chargers. It would be very easy for someone to pull up, plug in, and stay for an hour or so shopping for snacks & eating a decent meal, and all that while the car charges.

A lot of US rest stops, at least here on the east coast, are already like that. They have a "food court" with several options, though generally all fast food places, but you can easily be there for 45 minutes or so.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I found road tripping with tesla drivers a pain but that as in 2021 with less chargers?