FIRE and other people

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Do you guys feel judgement from people when you talk about retiring early? That if you say oh yeah we are done in 10 years and will be like 50. I feel like people don't get it. That sometimes you retire earlier because you spend less or like spending less. Instead they just wonder are you undersaving? Or underestimating? But I mean I feel like people who do it, run lots of numbers and scenarios.

Our number is flexing yes. But at the same time I feel as we get older we get a better sense of how much we'll really have.

[kork13]

I generally don't go into it in too much detail with other folks, because more than them being judgmental TOWARD me, I think they feel judged BY me... I'm a relatively young guy (34y/o). When I say that I'll most likely be FI by age 42-45, after they get over the shock and realize I'm serious, the feeling I get is that they feel inadequate for having "failed" to do the same. But perhaps that's partly a factor of my environment -- the military tends to attract alot of Type A hyper-competitive over-achievers. So when they realize they're way behind someone else, they become a bit insecure.

That said, you're totally right -- most people don't get it. Many will think I want to just quit & never work again. The question I get most often is "well what will you do with yourself for the following 50 years?" -- Answer: "Whatever I want." It's not about never working again -- it's about never HAVING to work, not being tied down to a job I may or may not enjoy. I fully intend to continue working but it'll be doing stuff for my church, for my community, and for my family. Things I enjoy, and that I can do at my own pace.

[cypher1]

While my plan isn't so much to retire early, but I'm guessing that most talk of financial independence/or early retirement to 99% of others simply comes off as bragging. Or they get defensive and reply with "what if you don't make it to retirement?" or "You can't take it with you when you die." I usually got those responses when simply talking about Roth IRAs contributions.

I don't mind talking about personal finance and investing with others, but I don't bring it up unless they ask first. I can understand it being uncomfortable, or others get defensive, and just not worth the discussion. Hence why I'm on this forum, as most people around me don't have that kind of interest or priority. Recently I posted about achieving a net worth goal on this site. But I only told one actual friend of that accomplishment, because they knew understood where I was coming from. Sharing with other family/friend IMO would think I'm just bragging.

[ua_guy]

I don't bring up retirement with friends or coworkers. The few times it has come up, others have made comments that they will pretty much be working until they die. Womp womp. It's not so much income as it is about planning. I wish others could see that and prioritize it in a way that makes sense for their budget rather than just throw their hands up in the air.

When I've discussed it more intimately with people closer to me, when I say the latest I want to retire is 50-55, they ask what I plan to do with my time. First issue. I've also gotten a comment about, "well I wish I had that kind of money". That's another issue.

In this country we believe we need to always be doing something actively with our time. That if we *can* be working, we should. But for what? What is wrong with simply living, waking each day to be mindful, exercise, interface with the world around us in a non-competitive manner. To cook, exercise, have low-cost hobbies and projects, or to volunteer time, spend time with important people around us in meaningful ways. I swear, people fear boredom more than death. Boredom is admittedly easier to confront.

The second issue is the perception that any of this requires great sums of money. No, it really doesn't. It can. But there can be a middle ground. it requires an adjustment of expectations and lifestyle that goes against the norm of retirement being the "golden years" of huge expenditures, global travel, having the best of the best to commemorate a lifetime of slaving away at a job. Those aren't my goals, and it's tough to communicate to someone who doesn't understand retirement any other way.

[bjl584]

I generally don't go into it in too much detail with other folks, because more than them being judgmental TOWARD me, I think they feel judged BY me... I'm a relatively young guy (34y/o). When I say that I'll most likely be FI by age 42-45, after they get over the shock and realize I'm serious, the feeling I get is that they feel inadequate for having "failed" to do the same. But perhaps that's partly a factor of my environment -- the military tends to attract alot of Type A hyper-competitive over-achievers. So when they realize they're way behind someone else, they become a bit insecure.

That said, you're totally right -- most people don't get it. Many will think I want to just quit & never work again. The question I get most often is "well what will you do with yourself for the following 50 years?" -- Answer: "Whatever I want." It's not about never working again -- it's about never HAVING to work, not being tied down to a job I may or may not enjoy. I fully intend to continue working but it'll be doing stuff for my church, for my community, and for my family. Things I enjoy, and that I can do at my own pace.

I agree that peoples' concept of retirement is flawed.
When I quit my day job the plan isn't to sit in my recliner and read the paper while puffing on my pipe.
I'll probably be busier and more active than ever.
I just won't NEED to work the way that I used to, chasing a paycheck every two weeks

[disneysteve]

I agree that peoples' concept of retirement is flawed.
When I quit my day job the plan isn't to sit in my recliner and read the paper while puffing on my pipe.
I'll probably be busier and more active than ever.
I just won't NEED to work the way that I used to, chasing a paycheck every two weeks

I've been finding, especially lately, that I enjoy my time away from work far more than ever. Maybe COVID has actually helped in that regard. We're spending more time at home and kind of being forced to find more ways to keep busy and active. I am definitely one of those people who will not be bored in retirement.

As for talking to others, I really don't have anybody close to me with whom I can talk about retirement (except my friend who is our accountant and my cousin who retired at 55). My coworkers all earn way less than me so I always need to tread carefully when any financial topics come up there.

That's why I hang out here.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I guess it's hard to explain that I'll never have "worked" traditionally in 9-5 by people's standards. That the idea is that I might "retire" and never work full time after having kids. So what have I done or accomplished with my life? Nothing. The judgement not of having too much money or bragging. But the judgement of what have you done with your life? What is your accomplishment? How would we measure you as successful?

[kork13]

That the idea is that I might "retire" and never work full time after having kids. So what have I done or accomplished with my life? Nothing. The judgement not of having too much money or bragging. But the judgement of what have you done with your life? What is your accomplishment? How would we measure you as successful?

That mindset kills me, and it's so toxic in our culture. What have you done with your life? You mean, like raise, educate, teach, and care for your family? Like sending into the world successful, responsible, competent, kind, and respectful children to keep our society moving forward? Sheesh.... That, IMO, approaches miracle worker status.

The family has truly come under assault over the last 50 years, and this toxic belief that motherhood (and even moreso, fatherhood) is an unimportant & outdated vestige of a despicable, discriminatory past. That the family unit is simply a social crutch, and it doesn't matter that BOTH mom & dad be present & involved in a child's life. How is it any less discriminatory to shame a mother for electing to prioritize her family & children?

Sorry for the rant, but that mindset bothers me alot...

[Petunia 100]

I guess it's hard to explain that I'll never have "worked" traditionally in 9-5 by people's standards. That the idea is that I might "retire" and never work full time after having kids. So what have I done or accomplished with my life? Nothing. The judgement not of having too much money or bragging. But the judgement of what have you done with your life? What is your accomplishment? How would we measure you as successful?

It's for YOU to say if you have been successful or not. It all depends what your goals are. If climbing the corporate ladder is not your goal, there's nothing wrong with that. Don't allow it to bother you if other people judge your choices; it is YOUR life.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

That mindset kills me, and it's so toxic in our culture. What have you done with your life? You mean, like raise, educate, teach, and care for your family? Like sending into the world successful, responsible, competent, kind, and respectful children to keep our society moving forward? Sheesh.... That, IMO, approaches miracle worker status.

The family has truly come under assault over the last 50 years, and this toxic belief that motherhood (and even moreso, fatherhood) is an unimportant & outdated vestige of a despicable, discriminatory past. That the family unit is simply a social crutch, and it doesn't matter that BOTH mom & dad be present & involved in a child's life. How is it any less discriminatory to shame a mother for electing to prioritize her family & children?

Sorry for the rant, but that mindset bothers me alot...

I don't know but we are as a society measuring our worth by "what do you do and what have you accomplished." It's a weird dynamic. I don't know how it's become this way that you have to work, have kids, and somehow men and women have it all. It seems a bit weird to step back and retire early and live on less.

[MonkeyMama]

I would never discuss FIRE with anyone. People are just way too weird.

I put our employment status in the "none of your business" category. Which is probably fine because my plan is to switch to part-time in another few years. It's easy to just gloss over and not get into the details. Not sure when it comes to full retirement. I'd prefer to just keep it private, but gets a little more weird and tricky. Especially because I think it's really no one's business when it comes to my in-laws (but I can see my husband thinking it's weird to hide from them). Is a bridge we will cross when we get to it.

Even my parents who are super cool, I wouldn't discuss, wouldn't want any weirdness. I mean, if we had a solid 5-year plan or something I may discuss with them, but wouldn't while we are still this far out.

The exception is my bff (who retired early 40s and brought it up) and a friend/co-worker of mine on the same financial page. I said out loud to her the other day that I don't intend to work full-time once my kids are done with college. But because she is a co-worker, probably wouldn't discuss more in depth. But is just not something I would even say out loud to most people.

I was going to say, people were super weird when my husband was home with kids, when I took maternity leave. In our early 20s and we had nothing to speak of. If I was honest that we paid cash for our cars or had no debt. Fast forward 20 years, I can't even imagine how weird people would be if you said you had seven figures or never had to work again. There's also an added element of just not wanting to get robbed. I got the memo loud and clear to keep these things private in our culture, and that just magnifies as we become *wealthy* versus merely *not broke*.

[Singuy]

I let everyone know how FIRE I am mostly to create credibility for the financial class I teach to students there. Got to walk the walk.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

considering i hear now that staying at home with kids isn't valuable = FIRE. Same thing. When you choose to do nothing.

[amarowsky]

The best part about FI, is it is left up to the beholder to define when they consider themselves "financially independent". As I see peoples numbers and estimates ALL over the place.

While we are not "there" accordingly, in my mind, we are well down the right path to get to the goal we want. I did my voluntary resignation from a job in Jan this year (fwiw - I would have rescinded that decision had I known about the Global Viral pandemic hitting a month later).

The 1st month, until the mayhem broke, was absolutely amazing! Nothing feels like "wealth" other than the luxury of time. And I jumped into like (what seemed like 1 million hobbies) wood working, gardening (including cannabis since it went legal in MI), playing music again, making art, hiking, got my hunting license & starting shooting bows, random visits to friends and grandparents, saying yes to almost "any" interesting or "chance to be helpful" opportunity, writing a lot more, reading a lot more, maintaining my home, and learning ttons of new skills & things. There is still a honey moon period of this for me. (maybe not for everyone) but for me I seem to slowly slide towards taking my free time for granted. I am now a FIRM believer, that for some people, you can't enjoy you're free time, if you don't spend some of your time doing something for someone else (selling your time is pragmatic if your not at full F.I). So I took a very simple, ultra flexible, and honestly decent paying part time job as a photographer for a building developer (shoot updated pictures of each house they're building in S/E/ michigan once a week, for $3 per house + gas). Winds up being about $425-500 per week, 33,000 steps (excellent exercise), and about 12-15 hours of work per week.

I break it into 2 or 3 part time days. And I found this to be (what I would consider) the BEST "retirement" schedule I could imagine. I can work whenever I want within the week (+ need day light) to take these pictures, make more than we typically spend on Food + utilities + little extra, and I enjoy my time off more. But as a 33 Y/O and not quite at full F/I, + walking into this Covid fueled Soon-to-be-full on depression. Now I've pinned my ears back a bit, and looking at getting full time productive again. Although as a "stop gap" measure I did take a job part time (8 to 10 hours a week) for $12 an hour at a local bike shop, to learn how to repair bikes (want add, said no experience necessary, and I REALLY wanted to learn how to fix bikes). So I have some work in the meanwhile, albeit about 30% of what I used to make an hour, but 100% more satisfying job than being a corporate account manager. (I'm in love with not working >45 hours a week! and I don't know if anyone is willing to pay me the amount of money I would need to go back to that. Thinking of R.E. agent, opening up a small business, going back to school for Bio-chem, or taking a job at a university - never did that before, and it sounds interesting).

I think we ought to talk about our retirement goals more often. The fact that everyone handles "personal finance talk" with the "kid gloves" of the yesteryear 1940's - 1980's is part of the reason we're in this awful mess of Spend 1st , burrow 2nd, and save last. People ought to be privy to the fact, that the amount of $$$ is not indicative to worthy your life had been lived. These are the motivators that have screwed up a lot of industries (Healthcare, Private Defense Companies, and Profit prisons come to mind as good examples, of irresponsible profit seeking). And our media isn't doing any favors, as they shine their focus on wealthy celebrities and promote their reprehensible spending preferences. I'm super happy that I'm open as I can be about my financial goals, my income, and how I've tried to get there. (Granted you can only do this if you are a middle of the road person, if I was crazy poor or crazy high earner, this information would be moot) If I made a TON of money, everyone would realize that is out of reach. But if you make a fair to midland 35k - 75k annually, many more people can make reference to my situation.

kork13 and I are close in age, and following similar paths. I think he may agree towards this feeling, if he has ever taken a "small test run" at F.I. I think we all ought to do our best to open up to people, and let them know, you don't have to make $100,000 to live a super satisfying life. And this would include moderate consumption, moderate savings, and plenty of moderation in moderation. But busting your ass 60 hours a week, for 30 years or better, in my opinion, is not a life all the well lived. Especially if you did it exclusively for surplus income, status, or just because you got stuck on the hedonic treadmill too long. I love people not being identified by their job, their wealth, or anything other than their kindness, personality, and actions to those around them. And by not sharing our situations with others, all we see if the "shells" they try to put up publicly. And often, I see people over spending to have the aesthetics they perceive as wealthy, when in reality, I bet that person needs their pay check WAY MORE than I need mine.

[MonkeyMama]

I think we all ought to do our best to open up to people, and let them know, you don't have to make $100,000 to live a super satisfying life. And this would include moderate consumption, moderate savings, and plenty of moderation in moderation. But busting your ass 60 hours a week, for 30 years or better, in my opinion, is not a life all the well lived. Especially if you did it exclusively for surplus income, status, or just because you got stuck on the hedonic treadmill too long. I love people not being identified by their job, their wealth, or anything other than their kindness, personality, and actions to those around them. And by not sharing our situations with others, all we see if the "shells" they try to put up publicly. And often, I see people over spending to have the aesthetics they perceive as wealthy, when in reality, I bet that person needs their pay check WAY MORE than I need mine.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I probably believe in the middle ground, but have just been burned too much.

Overall, actions speak louder than words. For sure, people who were very defensive and nasty 20 years ago, they see 20 years in the future that I wasn't full of crap, and some do come around. I've found that setting the example will mean a million times more than words ever will.

On the flip side of the coin... One of my co-workers is in debt up to her eyeballs (similar age/income). I would die of stress if I was in her shoes, is why it's so glaring to me from things she has said. (Their debt load is 8x their income). And... She most definitely has noticed that I don't have the same stress/money worries. It's obvious at my job that I am not being pulled into child rearing, because my husband is handling that. They all know he is home with kids. I am not going to lie/hide it if it comes up organically like it does in a job situation. Anyway... As long as this person believes that she can't survive without a $70K car on a $70K salary... As long as she truly believes that, I can't help her in any meaningful way. The office as a whole is very well off and frugal, and I see her being more open to the small things. But... The big things, I don't know. We may wear off on her over time.

On the flip side of the coin, there is a young man in our office who just recently graduated college. He has a really good job for his age and still lives at home. The young/single lady in our office who is very good with money, she can't hide the, "Eeeew, you live with your parents!? What do women think of that?" In a high cost of living region a 23-year-old that lives at home? I piped up one day and I Said, "It sounds to me someone who can actually afford a house some day." Doh! He gave me the, "Well someone gets it," look. I am used to the "eeew," comments, and I will point out how stupid they are.