Banning gas cars?

[bjl584]

Cash for Clunkers was a horrible program. The cars that were being turned in to be crushed were cars that would have normally been sold to the people in the lowest economic level and it created a whole group of people that suddenly were priced out of being able to buy any car.

We have a ton of apartment complexes here and apparently they don't have charging stations. I've frequently seen complains on our local website that people are struggling to find stores/libraries/etc. that have available spots to re-charge--and then having to sit there with nothing to do while they charge.

I see so many downsides to having to rely on electric only for vehicles.

I remember the cash for clunkers program and the problems that it caused for poorer people.
I'd guess that without proper infrastructure in place in the correct places, we will see a similar effect in poorer neighborhoods if certain cities ban gasoline vehicles.
People will be pushed out of the market from being able to have viable transportation at all.
No gas cars, no gas stations, high prices on electric cars, no charging stations where you live, no public transportation in your area will all add up to some big issues for certain people.

I was in California a while back and their power grid is stressed to the max now.
I'm not sure how they plan to deal with everything going electric.
They are unwilling to build more power plants.
They do have the advantage of the sun shinning, so solar is an option, but that's a lot of infrastructure to put in place.
Should be interesting to watch

[ua_guy]

This thread inspired me to watch some EV reviews and POV drives on Youtube. Something from one of the videos really stuck with me and made me think about current EV's in a new way. The gist was, maybe something like a Chevy Bolt isn't exactly a full replacement for an ICE vehicle in an ICE world, let's be honest, it's a small car and it might go about 230 miles on a charge if conditions are good. But if you are in a household with two ICE vehicles, replacing one with an EV could be a really great middle-ground. It would fit into your everyday driving without a fuel bill, the maintenance is lower. It could absorb the majority of your short drives. You've got an ICE to go the distance, tow your boat, or eliminate range anxiety for when you need that. And maybe owning an EV is not a purely financial equation..is there anything wrong with just trying one on for fun? Not really. It seems a lot of people get stuck in "the EV world isn't perfect for 100% of my current needs" and the point of the video was, that's OK.

I'm not in love with the Bolt, but it did get me thinking. It really could absorb about 90% of my routine driving. Something to eat up the wear and tear. Although 0-60 in 6.5 seconds is not noteworthy, I would still take it on drives for pleasure to test its range, and absolutely, I would be tempted to throw it into curves and see how something like that handles. It's FWD, so again, probably not amazing, but that's all the 1st generation Rabbit GTI was too, and slower, and the car is still legendary today.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Cash for clunkers was a bad program. And my BIL rents but would love a EV car. But until he buys he doesn't want to figure out charging since there is limited spots at his apartment complex and he has to move it. It's free but you can't leave it overnight. So there is that factor for people not living in their owned place. In theory according to koolaid drinking friends the cost of EV will be cheap enough after 2025 to make it a viable option for the lowest income people. Seeing is believing is my opinion.

[disneysteve]

according to koolaid drinking friends the cost of EV will be cheap enough after 2025 to make it a viable option for the lowest income people.

There's absolutely no way that's true. Will you be able to buy an EV for under 5K in 4 years?

Even if you could, as you point out, charging is an issue for many people, especially city dwellers, even if you own your home. If you live in a condo, you've got nowhere to plug in your car. Maybe you own a row home in Philadelphia. You might have room for one car in the driveway but what if you're family owns 2 or 3 cars. Only one could be charged overnight. When I lived in Philly, at one point my family owned 5 cars. We had room for one in the driveway. The other 4 were parked on the street. I doubt the city is going to install 30 or 40 charging stations on every street in the city.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

There's absolutely no way that's true. Will you be able to buy an EV for under 5K in 4 years?

Even if you could, as you point out, charging is an issue for many people, especially city dwellers, even if you own your home. If you live in a condo, you've got nowhere to plug in your car. Maybe you own a row home in Philadelphia. You might have room for one car in the driveway but what if you're family owns 2 or 3 cars. Only one could be charged overnight. When I lived in Philly, at one point my family owned 5 cars. We had room for one in the driveway. The other 4 were parked on the street. I doubt the city is going to install 30 or 40 charging stations on every street in the city.

one would argue though that city dwellers have no business owning a car. They don't need a car so they don't need charging. Well right now you can get a 2014 Nissan Leaf for around $8k so it's possible that you will be able to get an EV under $5k. But the reality is the charging will make it difficult for those who don't have a garage. Even for us sadly we are terrible and don't park either car in the garage. So I'm not sure how I'm going to charge my EV car. I really need to clean my garage to fit one car. But the reality is I'm not sure we will always be parking 1 car in the garage.

[disneysteve]

one would argue though that city dwellers have no business owning a car.

What? People who live in cities aren't allowed to drive?

Even for us sadly we are terrible and don't park either car in the garage. So I'm not sure how I'm going to charge my EV car. I really need to clean my garage to fit one car. But the reality is I'm not sure we will always be parking 1 car in the garage.

We have 3 cars. We do not park in the garage. Never have, never will. If we got 3 EVs, I guess we'd have to install charging ports in the driveway. No thanks.

[jIM_MI]

Ford makes about 30% of the car inhouse, most of it includes the shell and drive train. Since an engine has like a few hundred parts in them, this is where ford pockets the higher margin stuff.

What is actually funny is that these car companies are becoming more and more like financial institutions holding a bunch of debt in the form of cars sold to customers. They enjoy making that interest but boy is this dangerous if there's a massive default rate on cars since those are depreciating assets.

LOL
I think you need to relook at the business model

[jIM_MI]

There's absolutely no way that's true. Will you be able to buy an EV for under 5K in 4 years?

Even if you could, as you point out, charging is an issue for many people, especially city dwellers, even if you own your home. If you live in a condo, you've got nowhere to plug in your car. Maybe you own a row home in Philadelphia. You might have room for one car in the driveway but what if you're family owns 2 or 3 cars. Only one could be charged overnight. When I lived in Philly, at one point my family owned 5 cars. We had room for one in the driveway. The other 4 were parked on the street. I doubt the city is going to install 30 or 40 charging stations on every street in the city.

Google this to check my math
Basic math-
people drive on average 260 miles per week
This implies most people on a given day will be within 50 miles of their house...

this implies when charging a car it needs to get 50 miles added to the battery in whatever amount of time the car is charging
It also means the charging unit needs to be close to where the person lives their life (work-home-school). The biggest issue is the condos and apartment complexes (will landlords install a charging unit for every resident; if residents have to share, how is this rationed). Places of employment or leisure (malls, grocers etc...) COULD install charging units, but would they charge to use them, or increase the cost of services (would you pay more for lettuce to charge car while shopping).

The world will look different in 25 years. What will happen to all those corner gas stations?

[ua_guy]

What? People who live in cities aren't allowed to drive?


We have 3 cars. We do not park in the garage. Never have, never will. If we got 3 EVs, I guess we'd have to install charging ports in the driveway. No thanks.

Depending on how close to the house you park, probably a box on the house, or inside the garage, with an extension cord run out to the car. I agree offsite/street-parking would be tougher to remedy.

Or in 10 years maybe we'll have inductive driveway surfaces that charge the car just by parking on them.

[disneysteve]

What will happen to all those corner gas stations?

I imagine they'll add charging stations. Maybe instead of a dozen gas pumps, they'll have 4 gas pumps and 8 charging spots.

I've said before that what the industry really should have done is a universal battery that is quickly and easily swapped out. Rather than having to charge the car for some period of time, you pull into a "gas" station and an attendant removes your battery and pops in a freshly charged on and you go on your way. Just as filling your gas tank is uniform no matter what kind of car you have, powering up your EV should be uniform no matter what car you have. If they are going to continue with proprietary charging systems, it's going to be a mess.

[disneysteve]

Depending on how close to the house you park, probably a box on the house, or inside the garage, with an extension cord run out to the car. I agree offsite/street-parking would be tougher to remedy.

That would work at our current house. It would not have worked when we lived in Philadelphia because we didn't necessarily park anywhere near the house. Even when we snagged a space right in front of the house, we couldn't run an extension cord to the car because it would have had to cross the sidewalk which would have been a hazard to others. Also, what would stop someone from taking the plug from my car and using it to charge their own car on my dime?

[ua_guy]

That would work at our current house. It would not have worked when we lived in Philadelphia because we didn't necessarily park anywhere near the house. Even when we snagged a space right in front of the house, we couldn't run an extension cord to the car because it would have had to cross the sidewalk which would have been a hazard to others. Also, what would stop someone from taking the plug from my car and using it to charge their own car on my dime?

LOL!. In Doug Demuro's review of the Chevy Bolt (he's a well-known reviewer on Youtube) the Bolt actually sends notification to your phone if it thinks the charging cord has been stolen! The car also goes into alarm mode if it's unplugged while it's locked.

I think some of the charging stations are also tied to the VIN so they might not provide power if not connected to the intended vehicle(s). I'll have to read more on that, but seems like an easy problem to solve.

[disneysteve]

LOL!. In Doug Demuro's review of the Chevy Bolt (he's a well-known reviewer on Youtube) the Bolt actually sends notification to your phone if it thinks the charging cord has been stolen! The car also goes into alarm mode if it's unplugged while it's locked.

I think some of the charging stations are also tied to the VIN so they might not provide power if not connected to the intended vehicle(s). I'll have to read more on that, but seems like an easy problem to solve.

Thanks. Good to know there’s a system in place to prevent that.

[Singuy]

I imagine they'll add charging stations. Maybe instead of a dozen gas pumps, they'll have 4 gas pumps and 8 charging spots.

I've said before that what the industry really should have done is a universal battery that is quickly and easily swapped out. Rather than having to charge the car for some period of time, you pull into a "gas" station and an attendant removes your battery and pops in a freshly charged on and you go on your way. Just as filling your gas tank is uniform no matter what kind of car you have, powering up your EV should be uniform no matter what car you have. If they are going to continue with proprietary charging systems, it's going to be a mess.

Battery swapping is actually a gigantic waste of resources and cash drain for ev companies because

1. You need 2 batteries for every car sold when battery production is the rate limited step for every company

2. You need operators and multiple car wash looking battery swapping stations per location which is both insanely expensive to build out. If you do the math comparing to a Tesla supercharging station with 60 stalls(which are now being build out), it takes 25 mins to charge 60 cars while it takes 8 mins to swap out a battery for 1 car. So the output rate of a battery swapping station is only 7.5 cars/hour, while at a tesla charging station it's 144 cars/hour, which means you need about 20 swapping stations just to do what one supercharger stop needs to do. And this 20 swapping station requires at least 150 batteries stored to be charged just to keep up with the swap rate. So think about the capex of this entire operation vs 10-15k/stall installed from Tesla

3. You can't do structural battery pack therefore your car will have more weight and less range.

Over 80% of the people charge their cars at home. I know it's not easy for people living in skyrises but it's very very cheap to put in 220v chargers at every parking spot in a parking garage(cost 100 bucks a piece).

People also need to realize that their house or anywhere there's an outlet is a gas station now. You only need to charge at a charing station to get to an outlet. If I want a 50 mile buffer to get home, I just charge for 5 mins. I have never charged my car to full, just what I need.

[disneysteve]

Over 80% of the people charge their cars at home. I know it's not easy for people living in skyrises but it's very very cheap to put in 220v chargers at every parking spot in a parking garage(cost 100 bucks a piece).

I'm not surprised that most owners charge at home. I'd expect no less. The issue, as I mentioned, is that that greatly limits who can own an EV. When you live in the city, you often park on the street, not in a private driveway or garage, and not necessarily anywhere near your house, so you don't have access to an electric outlet. They are going to need to install charging ports up and down every residential street, sort of like parking meters.