Marriage and combining fiances

**elessar78** · 11-01-2012, 03:35 PM

How money is handled is one major cause of strife in marriages. As I like to say, money doesn't buy happiness but it buys a heck of a lot of peace of mind.

Hold off on marrying if you two are not on the same page with your finances, saying "I do" RARELY changes anything and this isn't like some little thing like leaving dirty socks around the house.

On the other hand, yes it's very prudent to be debt free ASAP but do you think you can compromise on, say, 4 years?

Him liking expensive toys is a red flag too.

So is asking for a prenup.

**neatdesign** · 11-01-2012, 04:30 PM

You've got a couple of different issues here.

First is the conflict you and your fiancee have about whether to put some of HIS income towards paying off YOUR individual student loan debt so that TOGETHER you can hurry up and (hopefully) spend the majority of the rest of your lives in debt-free comfort.

Based on the information you've provided, your fiancee seems incredibly selfish.

To be fair, I can sort of understand his position about the student loan debt, especially if he has no student loan debt of his own. I think it's only natural for someone to feel some resentment towards having to fork over part of their paycheck to pay off someone else's debt -- even if that person is their spouse. I'm not saying that's a good thing or right, only that I can understand it. And if he comes from a wealthy family, his hesitation to follow your suggestion means his reaction makes even more sense (to me at least).

That said... I am just one of many, many people out there who feel that once you decide to marry, that means you're committing to sharing your lives. For better or worse, for richer or poorer, all that stuff. And if I love my spouse, I wouldn't want to see him being crushed by debt (and not just ANY debt, but "good" debt that paid for his education). I would WANT to help him get out from underneath that burden, and the sooner the better.

But your fiancee has made very clear that he doesn't feel he should do that for you. Your debt, your problem. To say that he considers his income as "play money" just proves that, for him, there is a very big red line between his finances and yours, and that's not going to change after you get married.

(By the way, if he considers his income "play money" then does that mean he's expecting you to pay for all of your joint life expenses? Mortgage/rent, food, car payments, insurance, utilities, phone service, car maintenance, taxes... you get the point. Sounds like a cushy deal for him.)

The second issue is the fact that your fiancee has informed you that he prefers to live a life of instant gratification without considering the long-term consequences of living that way. This just reinforces that he has no intention of helping you pay down your debt. He doesn't have the ability to foresee how that's going to negatively affect HIS life, not to mention yours.

To sum up, just based on what you've written above (and of course, there are always two sides to every story), I'd say that you would be foolish to get married to this guy. The suggestion you made demonstrates that you have a very mature, responsible and realistic attitude about personal finances. He does not appear to share that same attitude or approach.

Maya Angelou once said, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." I can tell you from personal experience (some not all that far removed from what you're experiencing right now) that this is very good advice. It seems very applicable here. I very highly doubt that he will ever change in this regard.

p.s. I don't think asking for a pre-nup is an automatic red flag, BUT in this case I think it is. At the very least, it reinforces the fact that your fiancee is only concerned about his own individual finances and not about how, as a marital unit, you should work together to achieve joint financial goals.

**neatdesign** · 11-01-2012, 04:44 PM

I also meant to ask: You said that your combined income would be about $100K, but who earns what?

Knowing this won't change my above-mentioned opinion, but I was just curious because it might shed some light on his position a little bit.

**sagremus** · 11-01-2012, 04:57 PM

Thanks for your support neatdesign and elessar. Our incomes are split down the middle (50k/50k). Right now we share bills 50/50 as we live together with our cats.

I too believe that when we are married we should combine income. I am in a place where I am paying down debt. I have been out of school since May and working since August but have paid down my student debts by $4k already, from $77k to $73k. I am very frugal and live on a budget. I could see him being afraid if I had thousands in debt due to buying cars or other consumer goods. As it was, I was very stupid in getting myself so much student debt. But I have learned so much and am changing my life. Don't get me wrong, I am not playing the "poor me" card -- I choose to go to an expensive school, dumb enough to take out the loans, but I am taking responsibility and paying them off. By the time we were planning on getting married I would expect to have at least another $15k paid off (in one year).

My fiancee's family paid for his schooling. Yet he tells me "I didn't work this hard to live like a pauper," when I mention to him about paying off our debts when we're married.

He is right, and sometimes I feel wrong about my expectations of "us" working towards paying this off. I feel like I made the mess and I should clean it up. But he knew about these loans when we got into our relationship and he agreed to marry me. So I'm torn.

**BuckyBadger** · 11-01-2012, 05:00 PM

You've got a lot going on here...

I'm also curious as to how the $100k expected income will break down.

And I have to ask, did he actually say this in so many words:

Originally posted by sagremus View Post

But all he says is "That's the future, and I want to live life now."

I find that a little hard to believe. If he is so unconcerned about money that he really REALLY said that I find it crazy that you've gotten so far as to discuss marriage. Because someone like that is not someone to whom I would hitch my wagon!!

If he's really as bad as you are portraying him, then I'd say to cut your losses and get out of the relationship right now. But if you're exaggerating a bit, there might be room for compromise.

So is he really that bad?

**papa_squat** · 11-01-2012, 05:09 PM

I agree with your statement that marriage really does mean "us" when it comes to finances. You can't feel like equal partners in life if he gets to have "his money" for fun and you have to pay off "you debt" and not have fun. That wouldn't be fair and you would resent him for it.

However, it also wouldn't be fair that you insist that half of your combined income be dedicated to paying off the debt you brought into the marriage. Even if your expenses are pretty low, you'd probably still be inhibiting your ability to build savings for emergencies, for your home downpayment and for the fun things you both want to do.

Pardon me for say this, but some of the things you've written express that neither of you are ready to get married. Nothing wrong with that; it's better to recognize that sooner rather than later, and long engagements can still end in happy marriages. Until you are married, you should keep your finances separate anyway. So I think your best plan of action is to continue to pay down your debt at a rate you feel comfortable with and that you can afford on your own salary. Your fiance can spend his money as he sees fit, but continue the conversations about money. If he doesn't seem interested in saving and working toward the same goals in the future, you might be dealing with someone you'll never be able to see eye to eye wih on money, which can make a miserable marriage. As he gets older, the novelty may wear off and his priorities might change, but I definitely see some red flags there.

Just remember that you can deduct the interest on your student loans on your taxes, so the debt isn't as bad as having credit card debt. Paying down $73k in 2 years is more than just ambitious. Don't be disappointed if it takes 5 years or even 10. Still, it's good to have goals. Keep us posted!

**sagremus** · 11-01-2012, 05:17 PM

I am not exaggerating, those were his words to me when we discussed retirement. His credit is so poor that all the bills are in my name. I found out today that he paid one of last month's bills late (again). When I confronted him about it, he became very defensive - "Why are you talking to me about something that happened a month ago." and "I'm sorry. Anything else you need to say to me?"

We have been together in our relationship a long time. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just sticking around because of everything we've been through. He has his good parts. But this money issue is going to be hard. I am thinking I may push counseling for us to get our thoughts squared away. He is not good at communicating (he sees everything as me creating an "argument"). We have had to do it before for other issues.

I guess the one good thing we see eye to eye on is our lifestyle. I have told him how I do not want to have an expensive house (only between $90-150k), or how I do not believe in buying cars on credit. He agrees that we both drive used cars and do not need anything fancy. Or how I do not believe in taking on any more debt. And he is agreeable to that.

**elessar78** · 11-01-2012, 05:19 PM

Huge diff. between living like a pauper and living a reasonable existence.

Settling for the iPhone 4S vs the iPhone 5 is not living like a pauper. Living without HBO is not living like a pauper.

Have conversations about the situation and do yourself a favor and don't go further without a resolving this. You can resolve this on either side of the wedding vows and if you're concerned about finances, divorces can be VERY expensive. As are weddings.

**elessar78** · 11-01-2012, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by sagremus View Post

We have been together in our relationship a long time. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just sticking around because of everything we've been through. He has his good parts. But this money issue is going to be hard. I am thinking I may push counseling for us to get our thoughts squared away. He is not good at communicating (he sees everything as me creating an "argument"). We have had to do it before for other issues.

Being human is just that: we have our good parts and our bad parts.

I assume you two dated in college? I'll say that the challenges of college dating and adult/real-world dating are vastly different and sometimes couples find that the qualities they have do not transition well into the adult world.

So in a way, you gotta go find a partner you can have an adult relationship with. Doesn't mean it can't be with the person you're with but it may mean it isn't.

**disneysteve** · 11-01-2012, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by elessar78 View Post

you gotta go find a partner you can have an adult relationship with

What he said.

Unless this guy transforms dramatically, you need to cut ties and move on. This person is clearly not ready for an adult relationship. He is not ready for "and the two shall live as one."

**Like2Plan** · 11-01-2012, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by sagremus View Post

I want him to see that this debt, while it is mine, it is going to weigh us down. We won't be able to achieve our goals because I will be so focused on debt repayment and have no disposable income. When we are married, it is not about "me" and "you" but about us.

I'm just not sure he's ready for marriage anymore, or how we are going to work things out. I just wanted to add that he mentioned a prenuptial agreement during one of our discussions.

The prenup is curious. Does your fiance have a lot of assets he feels he needs to protect?

Are children in the picture for you?

**Ramose** · 11-01-2012, 06:10 PM

I assume he is willing to pay for his half of bills and food etc. but not for your debt. His remaining money would go toward his personal savings or entertainment etc. while yours would mostly go toward your debt. I can understand where he is coming from, it is a bit selfish though. I suppose it is different to other debt because there is no physical asset that he will get from paying off the debt. If he had a credit card debt, would you help to pay it off?

When you buy a house together how will it be paid? Does he have savings? It sounds as if he is living in the moment and not considering the future. Don't get married until you both have discussed these issues.

**sagremus** · 11-01-2012, 06:24 PM

My fiancee is broke, no savings, nothing of real value (he drives an old beater). I think he mentioned the prenup because he's afraid if we divorce he'll get stuck with half of my debt. I am not the type to swindle him. Even so, the debt does not have his name on it, so he wouldn't be responsible for it legally either way.

We have no children (I am very grateful for that at this moment) except our cats, which are my children (and whom he resents, but that's another story). They both have health conditions which I manage, his cat is the sickest of the two, and I care for her, make her appointments, and manage her medications. He was late for her last appointment and I was furious. I could not imagine having a sick child and being with him.

If he had debt I would snowball into mine and we would pay it all together. I have even offered to help him with bills as he has been struggling lately (he is still finishing school, and although his parents are footing the bill he is still having some difficulties). He mentioned getting a credit card once and I told him that if he needed to borrow money, then to ask me first. He has not taken me up on the offer though.

**snafu** · 11-01-2012, 08:14 PM

Red Flags

While we understand the emotional commitment, you've mentioned a lot of red flags screaming for your attention. 1st, his credit is not good and he is generating debt in your name. No need for arguments, he needs to get these paid off asap and start working on improving his credit score. Flag #2 Late on a recent payment is serious, wreaks his credit rating and yours if in your name! Flag #3 He's buying the latest 'toys' but I'm guessing he's getting money from well meaning dad.

Flag #4 Fiance needs to grow up on get past his immature demand for instant gratification. Flag #5 It's hard enough for new grads to get a job, being hampered with poor credit is an unnecessary millstone now that employers often check credit ratings of prospective/potential employees.

Flag #6 Request for pre-nup! I'd sign the pre-nup if he signs a contract agreeing to get and keep a minimum 850 FICO score and only buy items he can pay in full by the time the bill hits the mailbox.

Flag #7 His philosophy seems what's mine is mine & what you have including SL is yours. Not much evidence of 'us.'

Flag #8 is a guess on my part...you pay 50% of joint expenses from earnings; he pays his share thanks to an allowance from a generous dad.

Marriage and combining fiances