Advice for Friend

[watsoninc]

My friend has always found it challenging to manage her finances. Fortunately, she has a financial advisor although my belief is that the best financial advisor is yourself. Still, having a planner is definitely better than not doing anything. I could ask my friend for specifics so we can dig around in her finances, but the truth of the matter is that she has what I assume to be tens of thousands in debt, a decent income, a little savings, and very limited expenses outside of her debt. I do not know how much school is yet, and she does like to shop a lot. My friend says that her "family helps" pay for the car note, but 1) my friend's car is not her name and 2) she is "definitely not paying for it all on her own." No, she is not completely forthcoming, but I never pressed her for all the specifics because I didn't want to make her any more uncomfortable than she already was, and I got the impression that I was crossing boundaries that she didn't want cross. Personally, I felt that until she cleans up her own mess, she is in no position to be of much assistance anyway and that her expectations for moving her mother into an $11K car were unrealistic given the available money.

Interestingly, she wants to move out but feels restricted by her debt and limited savings. She knows she needs a change and regrets much of her previous spending decisions. She has a general awareness of her situation but is still in danger of making future mistakes.

Also, the mother is absolutely not pressuring the daughter at all. It is 100% the daughter's sense of obligation that gave her this idea, as guessed.

[KellyJef]

I think a big problem today is that the kids aren't standing on their own. They are living off of mom and dad for way too long.

I totally agree.

There is actually a new tv show called "The Bank of Mom and Dad" that is about this very subject.

The mom and dad actually move into their grown child's house (they're in their 20s and 30s so they should be more financially stable!) for a week to help get them "straightened out" with the help of a financial advisor

[disneysteve]

I totally agree.

There is actually a new tv show called "The Bank of Mom and Dad" that is about this very subject.

The mom and dad actually move into their grown child's house (they're in their 20s and 30s so they should be more financially stable!) for a week to help get them "straightened out" with the help of a financial advisor

That really isn't what that show is about. I saw the first episode (we discussed it in another thread). It was a 20-something girl who does live on her own but her finances were a mess - lots of debt, living way beyond her means. Her parents moved in and the advisor came to help teach her how to live below her means and get her debt paid off.

I'm talking about 20-somethings and 30-somethings who are still living in mom's basement or their old bedroom, paying little to nothing in rent and simply not moving ahead with their lives as adults.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

I guess it doesn't make much difference, but I think the woman in that first Bank of Mom and Dad episode was 30 years old.

PS Looked it up--she is 33.

[snafu]

Do cultural differences need to be added to the mix here? having dinner with colleagues here in China, we learn that many are paying a monthly stipend to mom & dad whether needed or not as that is the norm here.

This goes back to rural days when mom & dad were no longer physically able to work on the farm and whose gov't pension was too small to pay for food. That family history caused today's urban parents to save for old age. Most now get a pension from employer along with that teeny tiny gov't pension. None-the-less the practice of having children 'pay-back' parents care and support is incredibly strong [much to our surprise]

[lovcom]

Also, the mother is absolutely not pressuring the daughter at all. It is 100% the daughter's sense of obligation that gave her this idea, as guessed.

Just because the mother is not pressuring the daughter to buy the car, does not mean the mother should accept the car...it would be immoral for the mother to take the car.

At the end of the day, the daughter should grow up and move out. Let mom worry about her own issues, and let daughter worry about her's. Too many boundries are trampled, and the whole thing shoulds jacked up...what a mess!

[Seeker]

Just because the mother is not pressuring the daughter to buy the car, does not mean the mother should accept the car...it would be immoral for the mother to take the car.

At the end of the day, the daughter should grow up and move out. Let mom worry about her own issues, and let daughter worry about her's. Too many boundries are trampled, and the whole thing shoulds jacked up...what a mess!

luvcom,

How would it be "immoral" for the mother to take the car? Would therefore a gift of an auto from parents, be immoral for sons/daughers to accept? Or is that different somehow?

In my view, a gift is a gift, no matter its source. It would have been nice if daughter could afford what she had planned... but life unfortunately does not always work out nicely.

People come from many different cultures with unique traditions and values toward "family." We each do the best we can.... but "shoulds" and "should nots" do not hold true for every person. When we make a judgement, it needs to consider the people involved and events that have happened that are not listed. "Family" means love and sharing, sometimes even when it hurts.

I feel for all the people in this situation.

1) You have Mom with transportation needs
2) You have daughter with financial issues and "guilt" issues (duaghter knows and feels that her dependance is not right, but she's not in a financial position to be able to do anything about it).
3) You have OP who is fearing treading upon waters and boundaries that are a sensitive issue for both these people.

The fact is that the car the daughter uses is also not hers... so she cannot really sell it and seek less expensive transportation for herself. Sounds like the daughter "owns" nothing but a lot of debts.

Is it the "family" that has that debt? Whomever "owes" the debt on the daughters car... that car may be the key to two other drivable useable cars. I cannot tell without numbers, budget, etc.

It is a mess.... but it's a mess for all.

[lovcom]

luvcom,

How would it be "immoral" for the mother to take the car? Would therefore a gift of an auto from parents, be immoral for sons/daughers to accept? Or is that different somehow?

In my view, a gift is a gift, no matter its source. It would have been nice if daughter could afford what she had planned... but life unfortunately does not always work out nicely.

People come from many different cultures with unique traditions and values toward "family." We each do the best we can.... but "shoulds" and "should nots" do not hold true for every person. When we make a judgement, it needs to consider the people involved and events that have happened that are not listed. "Family" means love and sharing, sometimes even when it hurts.

I feel for all the people in this situation.

1) You have Mom with transportation needs
2) You have daughter with financial issues and "guilt" issues (duaghter knows and feels that her dependance is not right, but she's not in a financial position to be able to do anything about it).
3) You have OP who is fearing treading upon waters and boundaries that are a sensitive issue for both these people.

The fact is that the car the daughter uses is also not hers... so she cannot really sell it and seek less expensive transportation for herself. Sounds like the daughter "owns" nothing but a lot of debts.

Is it the "family" that has that debt? Whomever "owes" the debt on the daughters car... that car may be the key to two other drivable useable cars. I cannot tell without numbers, budget, etc.

It is a mess.... but it's a mess for all.

I think it is safe to assume that buying a car for mom would hold back daughter termendously, and since that is probably the case, then it would in fact be immoral for mom to allow this to happen.

Parents should never hold back their children. Parents are to give to them until the children are late teens/early 20s, and if a parent has to give beyond those ages then the parent did a terrible job raising the child.

And if a child has to give such a huge gift to their parent/s, then the parent/s did a terrible job taking care of themselves.

Cultures that trample boundries so easily, have a high sense of entitlement are unAmerican, and go against what America stands for. It would be a mistake to equate love with such giving...this is not love, this is need and taking advantage of others....this is socialism-type paradigms that are not compatible with the American way....it may work in Mexico or China, but it is a shameful way to live here in the states.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

Well, for sure, this forum's focus is not "The American Way." This is the internet, for goodness sakes. People may be from anywhere on earth.

[LuxLiving]

lovcom said:

"Parents should never hold back their children. Parents are to give to them until the children are late teens/early 20s, and if a parent has to give beyond those ages then the parent did a terrible job raising the child.

And if a child has to give such a huge gift to their parent/s, then the parent/s did a terrible job taking care of themselves."

Sorry, lovcom, but I think you are painting with an awfully wide brush here. There are many families, mine included, that have disabled people in them who may be dependent on others financially. Just because I've a disabled child/parent who needs help does not mean I/they did a terrible job raising them.

Please!

[Seeker]

I think it is safe to assume that buying a car for mom would hold back daughter termendously, and since that is probably the case, then it would in fact be immoral for mom to allow this to happen.

Parents should never hold back their children. Parents are to give to them until the children are late teens/early 20s, and if a parent has to give beyond those ages then the parent did a terrible job raising the child.

And if a child has to give such a huge gift to their parent/s, then the parent/s did a terrible job taking care of themselves.

Cultures that trample boundries so easily, have a high sense of entitlement are unAmerican, and go against what America stands for. It would be a mistake to equate love with such giving...this is not love, this is need and taking advantage of others....this is socialism-type paradigms that are not compatible with the American way....it may work in Mexico or China, but it is a shameful way to live here in the states.

Immoral is a pretty strong word.... especially used in concert with that which is meant to be a "gift." Accepting and rejecting of gifts has certain connotations in different cultures as well.

Luvcom, you use such words as "never" and "parents are to give to thier children until" and "has to"; each of these statements can be easily countered with specifics (as LuxLiving and Joan have stated).

Do parents really have the obligation to freely give to their child regardless of specifics? Many of us have heard the word "no" as childen; many of us need that "no" from time-to-time.

Anyone who gives to anyone else (regardless of age or relationship) without thoughtfully considering these two questions may be enabling a dependency:

1) Is the need real enough and the situation caused by external or internal factors that the person in need cannot really control?

2) Is the need itself enabling the person to better their situation in the long-run? Will the person likely better their situation if I help them?

In this situation, Mom needs a car to go to work. Will Mom still continue to work without a car? Will Mom & family continue to "help pay" for daughter's car if Mom becomes unable to transport herself to work? What happens to other bills/expenses if Mom loses her job?

Life is a circle and every decision usually affects at least one other person.

"Boundaries trampled"? Not all cultures have "boundaries" so how can you trample them? I've also seen many "Americans" with that sense of "entitlement" that you say is so unAmerican.

Many cultures or families within cultures do indeed operate as a team.... and approaching life as a team is not always a "bad" thing. Boundaries can be a positive or a negative; it really depends on the individuals in question.

American families are composed of many ancestries as well. Many people (regardless of tradition or culture) choose their own ways (pick and choose among those ideas we would like to encompass)... especially when we marry and combine traditions and ideas.

Very few people are 100% of their background... and nobody deserves to be automatically grouped with their race, class, gender, culture or whatever we tend to judge individuals by.

[watsoninc]

I just received an update today regarding the car. My friend was able to find a reliable car for her mom. The total cost was $6300, of which $2000 came from insurance and the remainder came from the daughter's savings.

Although it's not ideal that the daughter had to use ~50% of her savings, at least she didn't add any debt to this scary financial equation. Thanks for all your thoughts.

BTW, my friend is American, so I don't believe she feels extra cultural responsbility to do this deal per se.

[lovcom]

Immoral is a pretty strong word.... especially used in concert with that which is meant to be a "gift." Accepting and rejecting of gifts has certain connotations in different cultures as well.

Luvcom, you use such words as "never" and "parents are to give to thier children until" and "has to"; each of these statements can be easily countered with specifics (as LuxLiving and Joan have stated).

Do parents really have the obligation to freely give to their child regardless of specifics? Many of us have heard the word "no" as childen; many of us need that "no" from time-to-time.

Anyone who gives to anyone else (regardless of age or relationship) without thoughtfully considering these two questions may be enabling a dependency:

1) Is the need real enough and the situation caused by external or internal factors that the person in need cannot really control?

2) Is the need itself enabling the person to better their situation in the long-run? Will the person likely better their situation if I help them?

In this situation, Mom needs a car to go to work. Will Mom still continue to work without a car? Will Mom & family continue to "help pay" for daughter's car if Mom becomes unable to transport herself to work? What happens to other bills/expenses if Mom loses her job?

Life is a circle and every decision usually affects at least one other person.

"Boundaries trampled"? Not all cultures have "boundaries" so how can you trample them? I've also seen many "Americans" with that sense of "entitlement" that you say is so unAmerican.

Many cultures or families within cultures do indeed operate as a team.... and approaching life as a team is not always a "bad" thing. Boundaries can be a positive or a negative; it really depends on the individuals in question.

American families are composed of many ancestries as well. Many people (regardless of tradition or culture) choose their own ways (pick and choose among those ideas we would like to encompass)... especially when we marry and combine traditions and ideas.

Very few people are 100% of their background... and nobody deserves to be automatically grouped with their race, class, gender, culture or whatever we tend to judge individuals by.

You very conveniently twist my words and put words in my mouth.

Just because a particular country has a culture that lacks boundries, does not make it moral or right.

I've spent time in eastern Europe (just one example) and in some of those cultures, and for centuries, there is a lack of boundries and respect from individual to individual, and across generations.

So lets NOT cover up immorality by placing it in a cute little box called "culture".

Lack of respect for others is always wrong, and for the prior gen to take from the new gen is wrong anywhere in the universe. And parents should only support their offspring up to a certain age, and then it should stop.

I'd rather shoot myself in the head then to expect my daughters to support me, feed me, shelter me....I love and respect them too much to put that on them, which will take their focus off their own kids, husband, and lives and onto me....IMMORAL!