More Millionaires

[nixuzer]

Re: More Millionaires

I merely relate the facts.

True however most human successes we not accomplished because people knew the facts, they were accomplished because people were motivated. When was the last time you heard a superbowl player say, "We're here because coach kept giving us the facts and kept all other extraneous information out!"

However, it takes different kinds of people to keep this world of ours going so I do appreciate the statistics/fact you provide and have consider it a great learning experience to interact with you.

Who’s stopping you ?

No one is stopping me because I refuse to accept failure. However larger government and more intervention in my life does slow the process down.

That’s not what I wrote. However, the public policy that constantly favors the wealthy is certainly at fault.

I don't wish any group to be favored over another in our government, put all people all equal footing. Why should a mom on welfare be able to schedule an appointment with the doctor to take her child in to get Tylenol and consuming the resources and tax dollars necessary instead of having a small co-pay to encourage her to get Tylenol when necessary.

Except that those that have had there incomes go backwards have, by default, been ‘forced’ to shop at WalMart. Was that planned or happenstance, I don’t know, but it’s been exploited.

With all due respect that is an oversimplification. Walmart is a marketing engine, they don't have the cheapest prices in many things but push those 'loss leaders' that draw people.

Almost 2/3rds of every federal income tax dollar you pay goes to finance JUST the Military Industrial Complex and the interest (only) on the massive Reagan/Bush/Bush federal debt.

Not to mention that because of the four rounds of tax cuts for the Rich & Corporate, federal income tax revenues have recently plummeted to 1959 levels.

Where would these massive cuts occur ?

What, Clinton cleaned up everything? If you believe that your are following party lines and not looking at things honestly (see pdf report at bottom as just one example).

How about the administratively heavy school systems for starters? There is a Congressman (can't recall his name currently but he wrote a book on weight loss also) who discussed the massive administrative waste in the public school systems. My experience with a 25+ year school teacher in my family reinforces that.

How about our doomed to fail 'drug benefit' introduced by Bush? Honestly the more I read the more distraught I am with both parties. See link below for good explanation of the tweaking of numbers to suit the policital goals (on both sides).

Agreed on the war machine spending, we might argue the specifics however the current administration's approach to pre-emptive war is doomed to fail (and is being reinforced).

Again, I do appreciate our interactions and they have caused me to do quite a bit of research and learn and I think we agree in some areas and will just need to agree to disagree in others.

Shadowing Reality:

http://www.weedenco.com/welling/Downloads/2006/0804welling022106.pdf

[VJW]

Re: More Millionaires

True however most human successes we not accomplished because people knew the facts, they were accomplished because people were motivated.

In regards to the accumulation of wealth, that is simply not the case the majority of the time, as has been documented.

No one is stopping me because I refuse to accept failure.

Then why the bugaboo about something as esoteric as the “World Bank” ?

However larger government

As I previously posted, America already has the smallest (non-military) federal government of all the twenty industrialized nations on the planet.

and more intervention in my life does slow the process down

The current administration is the most “intervention”-ist in history.

I don't wish any group to be favored over another in our government, put all people all equal footing. Why should a mom on welfare be able to schedule an appointment with the doctor to take her child in to get Tylenol and consuming the resources and tax dollars necessary instead of having a small co-pay to encourage her to get Tylenol when necessary.

HUH ?

With all due respect that is an oversimplification.

No it’s not.

The incomes of the vast overwhelming majority of Americans went BACKWARDS by almost 20% during the 12 years of Reagan/Poppy Bush, those incomes INCREASED by the longest consecutive increase since the 1960s during President Clinton’s two terms, and over the last five years, those incomes have DECLINED each and every year.

People who have seen their incomes repeatedly driven down have no other recourse but to shop for the cheapest price.

What, Clinton cleaned up everything?

In regards to ?

How about the administratively heavy school systems for starters? There is a Congressman (can't recall his name currently but he wrote a book on weight loss also) who discussed the massive administrative waste in the public school systems. My experience with a 25+ year school teacher in my family reinforces that.

Once again, we have the finest public schools on the planet, where we are willing to expend the money and resources. As of 2000:

* High school completion rates, at roughly 90 percent, and college graduation rates were the HIGHEST IN HISTORY.

* One in four adult Americans has at least a bachelor's degree -- the highest percentage IN THE WORLD (and the percentage keeps getting higher).

* A larger percentage of twenty-two-year-olds receive degrees in math, science, or engineering in the United States than in any of our nation's major economic competitors.

How about our doomed to fail 'drug benefit' introduced by Bush?

How about it ? If you check the other threads, you’ll see I predicted the disaster that has come about.

Honestly the more I read the more distraught I am with both parties.

What does “both parties” have to do with it ? The vast majority of the Democrats wanted a Medicare Prescription drug benefit, not the private-sector drug benefit the Congressional Majority Republicans and the White House delivered.

Shadowing Reality

Rather old news. I’ve been pointing out this administration’s fraudulent data for some time.

#

[nixuzer]

Re: More Millionaires

Rather old news. I’ve been pointing out this administration’s fraudulent data for some time.

This administration, he also discussed Clinton's administration in the document. Could you point me to some threads where you discuss problems with Clinton's administration (not related to his personal 'choices'). Actually the document is dated last month so you must be referring to the information in the document. I've been discussing the concepts of politicial manuevering of numbers for their own gain for over 6 months I've seen maybe 10% of people that have ever heard of it happeneing and of them maybe 10% who have actually read up on it.

My goal here is not to try and educate politicially active Amercians but the average hardworking American trying to get ahead. I explain the risks of debt, over-leveraging, etc and that becoming wealthy is not an overnight issue but is attainable (I know, your statistics don't support that premise) with the application of wisdom and hard work. Plus for some people just being debt free is being wealthy so I start them on that road first. We obviously run in two different crowds where I've been exposed to the 'exceptions' who have built their wealth by working their rears off and staying out of debt whenever possible where you're studying the people who had their seed money and connections to start.

[VJW]

Re: More Millionaires

This administration, he also discussed Clinton's administration in the document.

Oh, he “discussed” it, but got it wrong.

* His description of what happened with the readjustment of the CPI by the Bureau of Labor Statistics is true, but the Clinton administration had nothing to do with it. The Bureau had announced it was going to reexamine the CPI during Poppy Bush’s administration, and it went into effect right after President Clinton took office.

* His claim that it was the Clinton administration that stopped counting discouraged workers is complete fantasy. I’d have to go back and check exactly when it happened, but it was a VERY long time ago, as I know that the Reagan administration relied upon it. All Republican administrations rely upon it, which is why they always want to cut off the extension of unemployment benefits, so that jobless workers will no longer be counted as unemployed. He also failed to mention that it was the Reagan administration that began including the people in the military as employed, in a desperate attempt to make the Unemployment Rate look better.

* He really gives away his RightWing bias when he makes the farcical claim that there really was no surplus. That is merely RightWing propaganda, invented in an attempt to diminish President Clinton’s accomplishments. Both the CBO and the BlueChip private-sector document the surpluses quite well.

Could you point me to some threads where you discuss problems with Clinton's administration (not related to his personal 'choices')

If you mean in regards to manipulation of economic data, I know of none, so I would not have wrote about it. You see, unlike other administrations, the Clinton administration utilized CBO numbers (and the CBO was under control of the Republican Majority from January 1995 onward), and more importantly BlueChip private-sector economic numbers. During the 12 years of Reagan/Bush, the BlueChip private-sector had always stated that those administrations numbers were completely out of whack, and they were proven correct. They say the same thing about the current administration. However, the Clinton administration usually used numbers even more conservative than the BlueChip numbers, and when the results were better than projected, all the better.

As to this administration, I posted about their fake federal budget deficit numbers in this thread (post # 8 & # 9):

Greenie Spills The Beans


And about the fake CPI numbers in this thread (post # 8)::

Inflation?


I also addressed the fake GDP numbers from this administration, but I’d have to look for it.

#

[brig2221]

Re: More Millionaires

I found this forum while Googling some topics, really liked it, and found this thread. I spent a good 20 minutes or so reading through this entire thread and couldn't resist the opportunity to put forward my two cents even though this thread was abandoned some months ago, which is really no suprise given one of the authors.

First, I don't believe in casting dispersions at anyone or name calling for the sake of it. That said, I don't believe in sugar coating things either and usually call things how I see them, right or wrong. That said, here we go.....

Here are my thoughts on this thread, and they tend to focus solely on the attitude and rants posted by VJW.

My first thought and observation is that VJW a pseudo intellectual. By that I mean he is most likely a very intelligent person, but unfortunately waste's most of that intelligence in that pseudo intellectuals almost always cannot see past their own perceived enlightenment & absolute correctness on any issue. They almost always have a sense of perceived intellectual superiority, and often lack any intellectual respect for anyone other than the few people they feel are as enlightened as they are, which is very few. To put it another way, they already know in their mind that what you are about ready to say is wrong because they are an intellectual, and you are not, and therefore your opinions are not just wrong, no, that would be too easy. You are often "misinformed", or have "bought what X was selling you". That is Pseudo-Intellectual speak for saying you are too stupid to really know what is going on, but they aren't, so shut up and listen.

None of my above comments were written to be personal attacks against VJW. It is simply my perception of the author after having read this thread. I put my thoughts out there on the auther to provide a frame of reference of where I believe his opinions and general attitude are coming from.

Now to address the underlying issue of this discussion. Can an average American without inherited wealth accumulate a large amount of wealth today in great numbers? I believe VJW's position is that the average American cannot accumulate a large amount of wealth in their lifetime in any sort of meaningful number due to a myriad of factors such as rising healtcare costs coupled with decreasing wages and the supposed stock market that doesn't return any money consistently, only in small windows of time at large amounts that no one can predict. I won't even comment on his rants regarding the Reagan and "Bushie" administrations other than to say that anytime someone refers to a President and their admistration with a nickname such as "Bushie", or whatever his was, I think it's safe to say a person has an agenda at that point.

So far I think I'm hitting the nail on the head here. Now on to my thoughts.....

Personal accountability has all but been lost in this country. The sense of entitlement that your average every day American has is almost sickening these days. Government was never setup to take care of it's citizens from birth to death, and to protect them ultimately from themselves and their own poor decisions, which leads me to my point.....

One of the posters mentioned that certain things in this life don't happen because of statistics, they happen because of factors that cannot be graphed or measured, things like work ethic, pride, and motivation, the latter of which was used by the poster I was referring to.

I could not agree more with that thought, and it is the reason why most of your average Joe American's will never accumulate a great amount of wealth in their lifetime. There is a reason why most average American's are not millionaires and do not accumulate large amounts of wealth in there lifetime. It is simply that over the course of their adult lives, most American's are not willing to make the same sacrifices and committments that those who are ultimately successful had to make.

By the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, accumulating a large sum of money and becoming a millionaire is not anyone's right. It takes a special person that is committed to excellence in all areas of life in order to achieve such goals, which again, most people aren't willing to do because they don't want to make the necessary sacrifices, aren't willing to take risks, and simply aren't motivated enough as they are comfortable with their life as it currently stands.

Now, regarding VJW. You can spew all of the business links and PDF files you want at me or anyone else trying to pound home that you are unequivocally factually correct, and that ineed average folks just don't have a chance save the few lucky ones, and that poor Government policy along with the rich are the responsible parties.

As I noted above, what it takes to accummulate significant amounts of money cannot be aggregated onto a spreadsheet, which is why your links and reports aren't any more factually based than my opinions now. I believe our Government and economy are still the best in the world and offers the greatest opportunity to it's citizen to not only make a living for themselves, but to make a legacy as well. The only question is, how many average Americans will open that door to opportunity when it comes knocking, and get to work, and how many will let it go unanswered while they watch football on their financed Plasma TV, sitting on their financed furniture, placed in their 100% financed home, doing nothing to change the status quo?

[Aleta]

Re: More Millionaires

I think that it's not a possitive thing to attack anyone's personal views on this forum. Each person can say what they want and we can choose to ignor their comments and hope that they will learn to be where they need to be.

I believe it is a better idea to post our positive thoughts and how we can improve a particular situation. We are not here to beat up on our fellow forum people but to encourage them.

I can remember when some of my thinking was a bit swayed and how I had to find my own way. It's coming to sites as this one that hopefully will bring a light bulb moment to us.

After a while here I think that a lot of people will understand their own responsibility to themselves and not to depend on the government. I believe the reason that most of us is here is that we know we do have certain choices that we can make that can change our situations and that our problem isn't the government's problem.

I also believe that there are some who come here that do have that mind set and hopefully this site will enlighten them to show a different path.

[Broken Arrow]

Re: More Millionaires

I think that it's not a possitive thing to attack anyone's personal views on this forum. Each person can say what they want and we can choose to ignor their comments and hope that they will learn to be where they need to be.

Uh oh! If that's the case, then I must have been a very bad boy!

For the record, I don't think I've ever overtly "attacked" anyone, but I have offered my own point of view that is often times contrary to someone else's. However, I hope it wasn't misconstrued as something that is mean-spirited or anything.

I just see it as issues up for friendly debates. Because, I don't think there's any harm in tossing ideas around on an internet forum, ya know? Doing that won't cost us any money. If anything, by subjecting our ideas to constructive feedback, we can get better ideas on how to get much farther in our real life, which is what really matters to me in the end. I mean, if I'm wrong about something, I'd much rather be corrected on here than to find out the hard way in real life.

But seriously, if I've ever offended anyone here, I do apologize. That's never been my intention anyway, but... at the same time, I'm not going to shy away from speaking my mind either. But again, if I ever do, that it won't be because I'm trying to hurt someone's feelings. If anything, I'm just trying to be helpful, as I am hoping that you guys will do the same for me.

[PRICEPLUS]

Re: More Millionaires

BA you are always the gentleman here!

[Aleta]

Re: More Millionaires

Broken Arrow: I wasn't saying anything about what you said. If you go back a few posts, you will read where a Poster had called someone on this forum a pseudo intellectual. I just didn't see the need for the comments. I have always enjoyed your feedback and your opinions. It is great to oppose someones opinions without opposing the person if you know what I mean. I agree wholeheartedly that to have a different opinion is great - that's how we learn when we're able to open up to ideas different from our own.