international MF and ETFs

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I keep plowing money into international ETFs/Mutual Funds in my 401k and Roth IRA. Keeping say 20% internationally. I keep getting burned. International keeps sucking and has for over a decade. But according to what we preach we're supposed to do it just in case and DCA. Does anyone just want to bang their head on the wall?

I mean DH's 401k is two things S and P Index fund 70% and 30% International Index. Nothing fancy. Then I keep a couple of emerging markets ETFs and global tech and global ETFs. But global keeps not having real returns. Anyone else just giving up? Is that stupid?

[disneysteve]

We have some international funds in our portfolio. I don't know the % offhand. But we have not added to those funds for a long time, so the % has gradually declined. I think having some global exposure is important. The US market has been on such a tear for, what, 11 or 12 years now that the international has under-performed for sure.

[Jluke]

I had about 24k in a fidelity international fund (401k). I stopped contributing to the fund earlier in the year then finally sold all of it last Thursday.

it was a small amount and seemed pointless.

if you need a quote, I believe Jack Bogle didn’t feel holding international was important.

I’ll leave it to you or someone else to track down that quote to confirm.

i opted to place an order for more Wellesley ($75 fee to buy) so that will occur at market close on Wednesday

[cypher1]

I don't think it's stupid to have at least SOME international exposure. Currently I have 11-13% of VTIAX between Taxables and Rollerover IRA. Initially I was around 15%, but I've decided to let it be around 10%, so re-balancing that fund isn't a priority this year. Otherwise bulk of investments 50% VTSAX, and 15% VBTLX, with the remaining 20% spread out between MFs, ETF, and stocks.

If you're not impressed with the results (which I don't blame you), maybe divert more money into aggressive/riskier US funds, and let International % decline like myself and DS are doing.

[cypher1]

if you need a quote, I believe Jack Bogle didn’t feel holding international was important.

I’ll leave it to you or someone else to track down that quote to confirm.

That's correct. A more recent article talking about it this year: https://www.morningstar.com/articles...ational-stocks

[LivingAlmostLarge]

The lazy 3 fund portfolio says international should be there. I am considering downgrading more to 10%

[Petunia 100]

I had about 24k in a fidelity international fund (401k). I stopped contributing to the fund earlier in the year then finally sold all of it last Thursday.

it was a small amount and seemed pointless.

if you need a quote, I believe Jack Bogle didn’t feel holding international was important.

I’ll leave it to you or someone else to track down that quote to confirm.

i opted to place an order for more Wellesley ($75 fee to buy) so that will occur at market close on Wednesday

If you held Wellesley directly at Vanguard, you wouldn't have to pay a cent each time you buy/sell.

[Petunia 100]

I continue to keep approximately one-third of equities in international. True, it hasn't paid off the during the past 10 or so years. At any time, a single year can change that. I continue to believe that broad diversification and low costs are the foundation of prudent investing, so I am going to keep right on holding international.

[disneysteve]

If you held Wellesley directly at Vanguard, you wouldn't have to pay a cent each time you buy/sell.

I was wondering why there was a fee for that fund, but yes, if it isn't at Vanguard, that could be why. $75 is a lot.

[Jluke]

If you held Wellesley directly at Vanguard, you wouldn't have to pay a cent each time you buy/sell.

401k account is fidelity so I get charged.

free at E*TRADE to buy it with some strings attached

[disneysteve]

401k account is fidelity

Do they not have any fund that is comparable? $75 is a big commission every time you invest in the Vanguard fund.

[Jluke]

Do they not have any fund that is comparable? $75 is a big commission every time you invest in the Vanguard fund.

I’ve only bought 3 times in the last 7 years

[disneysteve]

I’ve only bought 3 times in the last 7 years

Not so bad I suppose. Still a hefty commission. I guess they want to discourage you from doing outside investments.

[kork13]

While I've always held a portion of my assets in international funds (normally 15%-25%), I'm definitely not impressed... VTIAX is the only fund I'm sitting on with significant unrealized losses. So I've let them drift down toward only being 10%. I've also leaned a bit toward emerging markets, and held for years (until selling to buy our new house) some decently-profitable VWO shares that I snapped up on some of its dips.

ETA: Scratch that, apparently I sold those VTIAX shares for the house too... Almost all of my shares bought from Dec'17-Jul'19 were sold for between <1% gain, as low as 10% loss. Ugh....

[Singuy]

I make sure I have as little international exposure as possible. While the theory is good that investing in developing countries is almost like investing in start ups, but this world is definitely not fair. If you think there's income inequality in this country, it's almost laughable if you compared the wealth inequality of the world, the US being the top dog. This lead the top dogs to game the system, control all the assets, and exploit the resources of other nations. And if those nations are getting strategically "out of hand", then the top dogs will make new rules to break them apart (tiktok and huawei for example). So for these reasons, invest only in the top dogs. It's pretty much a monopoly.