Rental car advice would you choose an EV or an ICE?

[FrostedMoose]

electric cars are play things for rich people. they pollute the earth way more than gas cars. people can be like some of the cows i raise. dummies.

[srblanco7]

electric cars are play things for rich people. they pollute the earth way more than gas cars. people can be like some of the cows i raise. dummies.

Had to go look for a trusted source on this topic. Found the following on a MIT Climate site - for what it's worth.

Electric vehicles are unambiguously better for the climate than ICE cars. But they do create some pollution.

That’s because the electricity that powers EVs has to come from somewhere: often, a fossil fuel power plant. Luckily, power plants are much more efficient at making energy than a car engine, so even an EV that runs entirely on electricity from coal—the very “dirtiest” fossil fuel—will still produce less CO2 per mile driven than a similar ICE car.3

In practice, most electric grids have a mix of fossil fuels and clean energy. An electric car charged on the average U.S. electric grid creates just a third as much CO2 per mile as a similar ICE car: the equivalent of a gasoline car that gets over 100 miles per gallon.4 And as the grid itself improves, EVs already on the road will continue to get cleaner.

Manufacturing EV batteries, and mining and refining the minerals used in them, also creates climate pollution. An EV rolling off the factory floor has likely produced 50% to 80% more CO2 than a similar ICE vehicle before it drives a single mile.5 The EV then “pays off” these manufacturing emissions by driving cleaner over a lifetime of use.6

All this means that, while EVs can help lower our greenhouse gas emissions by replacing ICE vehicles, they are not perfect. EVs are best seen as part of a suite of tools for clean transportation. Where practical, walking, biking, or using public transportation will almost always create less CO2 than EVs, while EVs have a unique role serving longer trips and those that can only be taken by car.

I don't own an EV nor am I necessarily advocating that others should own them. Not certain, given the current state of US infrastructure, that it's reasonably feasible to fully convert to EVs. That being said, we talked about the feasibility of doing so for one of our two family vehicles - ok to use EV for local travel but maintain an ICE vehicle for longer road trips.

[kork13]

I don't own an EV nor am I necessarily advocating that others should own them. Not certain, given the current state of US infrastructure, that it's reasonably feasible to fully convert to EVs. That being said, we talked about the feasibility of doing so for one of our two family vehicles - ok to use EV for local travel but maintain an ICE vehicle for longer road trips.

That's kinda what I'm thinking as well ... Having an EV for around town/short trips would be great, but it'll probably be desirable to maintain the convenience & reliability of a ICE (or hybrid, or plug-in-hybrid, or comparable) vehicle as well. I dunno ... Any type of EV or hybrid isn't a practical/affordable option for us while living overseas for just a few short years.

[ua_guy]

With part of Hertz's EV fleet hitting the market, there will be some good opportunities to buy a used EV. Model 3's are a lot of car for the money and they're expected to go for <$20k. Under $25k is a relatively new segment for the EV market but more and more EV's are hitting that price point, or less.

I don't know if I mentioned, we leased our iX. It's the one time leasing made sense for us, as we consider ownership of our first EV to be experimental. We also wanted to hedge against obsolescence and uncertain market conditions. BMW over-shot the market with the iX, they don't sell particularly well. As such, BMW was offering a $9900 incentive on a lease before any tax credits -- and we're not eligible for any EV tax credits. The incentive effectively wiped out the money factor, and BMW is oddly optimistic about the residual value. The lease felt opportunistic for us. It will be interesting to see where EV tech goes in the next 3 years. Maybe we keep the iX at the end of the lease. Or maybe we give back the keys to a totally obsolete vehicle and wish them luck trying to sell it.

[FrostedMoose]

Had to go look for a trusted source on this topic. Found the following on a MIT Climate site - for what it's worth.

Electric vehicles are unambiguously better for the climate than ICE cars. But they do create some pollution.

That’s because the electricity that powers EVs has to come from somewhere: often, a fossil fuel power plant. Luckily, power plants are much more efficient at making energy than a car engine, so even an EV that runs entirely on electricity from coal—the very “dirtiest” fossil fuel—will still produce less CO2 per mile driven than a similar ICE car.3

In practice, most electric grids have a mix of fossil fuels and clean energy. An electric car charged on the average U.S. electric grid creates just a third as much CO2 per mile as a similar ICE car: the equivalent of a gasoline car that gets over 100 miles per gallon.4 And as the grid itself improves, EVs already on the road will continue to get cleaner.

Manufacturing EV batteries, and mining and refining the minerals used in them, also creates climate pollution. An EV rolling off the factory floor has likely produced 50% to 80% more CO2 than a similar ICE vehicle before it drives a single mile.5 The EV then “pays off” these manufacturing emissions by driving cleaner over a lifetime of use.6

All this means that, while EVs can help lower our greenhouse gas emissions by replacing ICE vehicles, they are not perfect. EVs are best seen as part of a suite of tools for clean transportation. Where practical, walking, biking, or using public transportation will almost always create less CO2 than EVs, while EVs have a unique role serving longer trips and those that can only be taken by car.

I don't own an EV nor am I necessarily advocating that others should own them. Not certain, given the current state of US infrastructure, that it's reasonably feasible to fully convert to EVs. That being said, we talked about the feasibility of doing so for one of our two family vehicles - ok to use EV for local travel but maintain an ICE vehicle for longer road trips.

They dont talk about where to dump all these poisonous things when they dont keep a charge. you want those at your local dump?

[ua_guy]

Non-serviceable EV batteries are recycled. They don't get "dumped". Just like lead-acid batteries. EV's aren't new, batteries in hybrids and such have been around for more than 25 years, so there's meaningful data and history on the full lifecycle of all types of vehicle batteries.

[disneysteve]

Non-serviceable EV batteries are recycled. They don't get "dumped". Just like lead-acid batteries. EV's aren't new, batteries in hybrids and such have been around for more than 25 years, so there's meaningful data and history on the full lifecycle of all types of vehicle batteries.

Don't feed the trolls

The reason facts don't change most people's opinions is because most people don't use facts to form their opinions. They use their opinions to form their "facts." - Neil Strauss

[LivingAlmostLarge]

With part of Hertz's EV fleet hitting the market, there will be some good opportunities to buy a used EV. Model 3's are a lot of car for the money and they're expected to go for <$20k. Under $25k is a relatively new segment for the EV market but more and more EV's are hitting that price point, or less.

I don't know if I mentioned, we leased our iX. It's the one time leasing made sense for us, as we consider ownership of our first EV to be experimental. We also wanted to hedge against obsolescence and uncertain market conditions. BMW over-shot the market with the iX, they don't sell particularly well. As such, BMW was offering a $9900 incentive on a lease before any tax credits -- and we're not eligible for any EV tax credits. The incentive effectively wiped out the money factor, and BMW is oddly optimistic about the residual value. The lease felt opportunistic for us. It will be interesting to see where EV tech goes in the next 3 years. Maybe we keep the iX at the end of the lease. Or maybe we give back the keys to a totally obsolete vehicle and wish them luck trying to sell it.

Actually in 2014 I had a neighbor who worked for nissan battery engineering. They were leasing their leaf. At that time he told me that people should not be buying but only leasing EV because battery tech was changing for the next 5-10 years. It's been now 10 years and maybe if you qualifed for buying before it would have made sense. But if you wanted longer range and faster charging he said battery tech was going to change for a long time and it didn't make sense to buy.

Then in 2017/2018 i had two engineers as clients for waze and cruz who told me not to buy tesla but lease if i did because they didn't think Self Driving was 5 years away more like 10. Last 10% would take 90% of the effort and time. They figured at least 10 more years back then. Elon musk was way wrong they both said. Proved to be correct. Tesla still doesn't have self driving 5 years after he promised and i have friends who bought and paid for self driving and have now sold those cars. They suggested leasing so if I wanted self driving I could jump on the First to Market and switch based on who ended up leading.

Again probably proving correct. I'm not saying it's the best financial decision, but sometimes you make a decision not based on finances but maybe you need help driving and want self driving. Or realy care about the environment so you don't want a gas car. But there are always reasons for doing something that doesn't counterintuitive to "wise" financial decisions.

[disneysteve]

I definitely think leasing an EV makes sense, even though I'm firmly opposed to leasing in general. The tech is changing rapidly and prices are coming down which is impacting resale value (part of Hertz's problem). Better to just rent it for 2-3 years and be able to walk away cleanly. If you decide to buy it an the end of the lease, you have that option, or you can buy/lease a new one, or you can just be done with it and go back to an ICE vehicle if you prefer.

[FrostedMoose]

Don't feed the trolls

The reason facts don't change most people's opinions is because most people don't use facts to form their opinions. They use their opinions to form their "facts." - Neil Strauss

yeah. go do some of your own research and tell me how many lithium car batteries are being recycled. I'll help you out. It's near zero.The only battery material that can be recycled profitably is cobalt and that isnt in cars. No one wants to recycle lithium because the juice isn't worth the squeeze and its some nasty dangerous stuff. i dont know about saving money but your getting in my wheelhouse with batteries Kemosahbee.

[Fishindude77]

Non-serviceable EV batteries are recycled. They don't get "dumped". Just like lead-acid batteries. EV's aren't new, batteries in hybrids and such have been around for more than 25 years, so there's meaningful data and history on the full lifecycle of all types of vehicle batteries.

You sure about that?
I'm unaware of any business that recycles batteries.
Seems like recycling of most products like this that are mixed materials is cost prohibitive. The effort to recycle costs more than the salvaged material is worth, so off to the landfill.

[ua_guy]

You sure about that?
I'm unaware of any business that recycles batteries.
Seems like recycling of most products like this that are mixed materials is cost prohibitive. The effort to recycle costs more than the salvaged material is worth, so off to the landfill.

Yep, I'm sure about that.

I assume you're capable of doing your own research.

[FrostedMoose]

electric car batteries are not recycled.no money in it.thrown in landfills or open air just like all those old sun panels and wind turbine parts.dont listen to fairy tails.

[FrostedMoose]

theres ur clean energry haha