Ethics - Black & White or Gray

[DaveInPgh]

My experience with some of the scenarios referenced:

I have paid cash to contractors with an assumption they were keeping it off the books, but have never been told that was the reason for them offering a discount for cash.

I did have a contractor pad an estimate for an insurance claim but did so without telling us beforehand. This scenario made me really uncomfortable so I asked him to write a more detailed estimate without padding it.

[sv2007]

I don't go with anything I don't think is right. While I'm dedicated to my work, work has never been so important that I'd compromise my values.

The good thing about employment is that one can change jobs. Deceiving customers is definitely something I would never do (and have never done).

Maybe I was fortunate that I never felt trapped when it comes to jobs so I can't understand the pressures that caused those Wells Fargo workers to do what they do. But as an outsider and based on my experience, I would say it is greed that caused those workers to commit fraud.

[DaveInPgh]

I don't go with anything I don't think is right. While I'm dedicated to my work, work has never been so important that I'd compromise my values.

The good thing about employment is that one can change jobs. Deceiving customers is definitely something I would never do (and have never done).

Maybe I was fortunate that I never felt trapped when it comes to jobs so I can't understand the pressures that caused those Wells Fargo workers to do what they do. But as an outsider and based on my experience, I would say it is greed that caused those workers to commit fraud.

Big surprise that we disagree

You clearly were in a fortunate position with your career where you felt you could change jobs. Like I have stated on multiple occasions, I just don't think you are in touch with the average joe (jane).

I suspect many of those WF workers were living paycheck to paycheck and could not afford to just say no.

And I am not sure if you ACTUALLY read the article, but it referenced how it was a struggle for some of the employees that did say no and lost their job.

[disneysteve]

work has never been so important that I'd compromise my values.

The good thing about employment is that one can change jobs.

This certainly doesn't reflect reality for the vast majority of people. Most people are critically dependent on their jobs to survive. They can't just pick up and leave when they don't like something. It's great if you had that freedom but understand that very, very, very few people share that freedom.

[sv2007]

This certainly doesn't reflect reality for the vast majority of people. Most people are critically dependent on their jobs to survive. They can't just pick up and leave when they don't like something. It's great if you had that freedom but understand that very, very, very few people share that freedom.

It is only a job. If my manager asks me to lie and cheat, no matter how much the pay, I'd report and leave. I don't mind making less money; I mind very much doing something wrong. It is that simple. There are many jobs; jobs in all fields.

It is a slippery slope. "The commands came from the top" (or something like that) was what SS soldiers said.

[sv2007]

There are lots of things we could do every day that are perfectly legal, but that doesn't mean they are the right thing to do. Ethics is one of those "follow the golden rule" things. Treat others how you would like to be treated, and behave how you would like others to behave.

Not to disagree with you, but the OP's example is wells Fargo. The Wells Fargo employees acted illegally and unethically; there's just no possible excuse. As for legal vs ethical; I'm sure we've all driven above the speed limit before.

[DaveInPgh]

It is only a job. If my manager asks me to lie and cheat, no matter how much the pay, I'd report and leave. I don't mind making less money; I mind very much doing something wrong. It is that simple. There are many jobs; jobs in all fields.

It is a slippery slope. "The commands came from the top" (or something like that) was what SS soldiers said.

[DaveInPgh]

Not to disagree with you, but the OP's example is wells Fargo. The Wells Fargo employees acted illegally and unethically; there's just no possible excuse. As for legal vs ethical; I'm sure we've all driven above the speed limit before.

The OP said the Wells Fargo lawsuits is where the idea of the thread arose. Then the OP went on to ask if the members have ever been in a situation where they felt pressured to do something they felt was unethical.

This thread is NOT specific to Wells Fargo and I don't believe the OP indicated that it was.

[frugal saver]

I'm one of those "by the book" people, and when things have come up at work, I generally just stare at the person and say something like "you want me to break the law?" and they generally walk away.

As far as Wells Fargo goes, this plays out everyday. Car dealerships that fire you if you don't sell enough cars (whether the customer can afford the car or not); telemarketers who's job depends on selling no matter what.

Even my (previous) heating and air service tried to hard-sell me some repairs that weren't needed because they had a selling requirement to stay technicians.

I think I'm less bothered by the WF situation than by singling them out when everyone knows--or should know--it happens in all kinds of jobs.

The one personal incident I recall was when we were horribly backlogged with work. We all got together to make a plan to streamline processing to get it all done as fast as possible--and came into work to discover that some manager had "solved" the problem by simply throwing all the work away without doing it. That bothered me for years.

[DaveInPgh]

The one personal incident I recall was when we were horribly backlogged with work. We all got together to make a plan to streamline processing to get it all done as fast as possible--and came into work to discover that some manager had "solved" the problem by simply throwing all the work away without doing it. That bothered me for years.

There was a highly publicized incident in my city years ago where managers shredded work that needed to be processed. I am pretty sure those that were involved were prosecuted.

I am confident I would have said no in that particular situation.

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

I know the shop my family always used when I was growing up always "covered" the deductible.

Oh, phoo! My own naivete continues to unfold even this late in my life! It had not occurred to me that shops advertising to cover the deductible were really jacking up the price sent to insurance. I really thought they were saying they would just take less profit per job done.

I even hear radio advertising for body shops and glass installers that say this. Are they really advertising that they are dishonest?

[disneysteve]

I even hear radio advertising for body shops and glass installers that say this. Are they really advertising that they are dishonest?

I've never heard ads like that. I can't imagine they would actually be advertising that they are committing insurance fraud so I'm not quite sure what the deal is in those cases.

In the cases I'm referring to, if the repair would cost $1,500 and we had a $500 deductible, the shop would write up the repairs as costing $2,000. They would supposedly get $1,500 from the insurance company and $500 from the customer - except they didn't get anything from the customer as the insurance money paid the full cost of the repairs. But they certainly didn't advertise that they did this.

[DaveInPgh]

Now that Joan mentioned it, I have seen adds like this involving auto repairs. I don't recall ever hearing/seeing radio or tv ads for it, but definitely in print.

[GoodSteward]

I've never heard ads like that. I can't imagine they would actually be advertising that they are committing insurance fraud so I'm not quite sure what the deal is in those cases.

In the cases I'm referring to, if the repair would cost $1,500 and we had a $500 deductible, the shop would write up the repairs as costing $2,000. They would supposedly get $1,500 from the insurance company and $500 from the customer - except they didn't get anything from the customer as the insurance money paid the full cost of the repairs. But they certainly didn't advertise that they did this.

This is called insurance fraud and if they get caught they would be in big trouble. I have even heard of a local shop jacking up the price to give you some money back cash in hand. I am not sure how they could get caught. If everybody was doing it all the local prices would be around the same so it wouldn't trigger a flag unless someone said something.

[disneysteve]

This is called insurance fraud and if they get caught they would be in big trouble.

Absolutely. That's why I can't imagine a shop actually advertising that they were doing it.