Student loan forgiveness

[amarowsky]

I think the focus should be REASONABLE tuition, not loan forgiveness. Dh and I have worked very hard and live BELOW our means and banked 529s for our children. For our 3 children, they had or will have completely paid for Undergrad tuition. Our youngest just left for college and we have enough banked to pay her 4 undergrad years. So, yeah, I would be more than PISSED if we lived responsibly, eschewed material things, vacations, nicer cars, etc and poof someone who did not gets a free ride. I will never support that. And if that is the case, then she perhaps I should borrow to the hilt just in case instead. Geez

I agree. If the gov't didn't step in to support these loans, we never would have had the run-away costs we had in the 1st place. The institutions would have had to remain competitive, because no one in their right mind, who had to work for their money, would allow the average 18 year old to loan anywhere from $30,000 - 100,000+ w/ a (basically) unsecured federally backed loan. It's predatory.... period....

That being said... I'm so sick of hearing that we "can't afford" free school. They just upped the military budget by $130 billion this year, ONTOP of what we had secured already. On all accounts, I hear the annual cost to enable tuition free school is in the neighborhood of $50-60 billion per year. So we clearly can, we just want people to pay for it directly instead of through tax/selling gov't bonds.

I think there is a very strong argument, that the $60 billion annual price tag, would likely yield america as a Whole, with higher productivity & stronger capital resources (more formally schooled americans to support solving our issues). But you won't hear that argument by the administration, as it's not profitable for this quarter.... And it is proactive, instead of reactive (we plan re-actively, so we can continue to optimize currents profits. IMO).

If USA could improve our education infrastructure, and reduce the barrier to entry for more americans (even if only in public university setting) I see almost no downside.... I don't know who specifically benefits from these institutions being soo massive & high profit earning, other than the Elite administrators, and the massive armies of jobs from "student aid, financial aid, grant writing, etc.... " creating bloat to find and move money around to secure as many federally backed loans as possible.

Education as a similar "profiteering stink" that healthcare is Rotten with.... But I think education could be salvaged much more easily, and still retain a successful "for-profit" wing. Either strip ALL federal support for schooling and go total free market, or tax and subsidize public schooling fully.. To run more lean (Cut out financial aid dept's & other admin bloat) so a bunch of administrators don't have to get in-between the educational relationship of the Student <--->Instructor. I think, Just like healthcare, we're doing the worst of both worlds. ANd it seems to only benefit financially motivated stakeholders, and not the students/patients.

[amarowsky]

*Should have added. I heard the idea of "changing financing" for schools. Something like a 10 year repayment timeline. It was clever, and set up to motivate paying for the most desirable degrees, essentially STEM & Applied Medical fields. Where the value those degrees enables is much higher than a typical Liberal Arts based degree. I could get on board with this, essentially lowering the barrier of opportunity for those willing to go through higher 'in demand" disciplines in school.

***I think this is a core issue we need to talk out. There should be a better way to motivate & enable participation in some degrees. And money shouldn't get in the way of enabling someone who has potential to create long term value for USA society.

[disneysteve]

The cost of a degree should vary as well based on real world economics. It should cost less to become a social worker than it does to become a civil engineer.

The potential problem there becomes creating a disincentive to pursue those more costly degrees. "Do I spend $50,000 to become a social worker or risk $200,000 to become an engineer?"

There are colleges that have lazy rivers and all kinds of silliness when the goal should be a good education. We should be looking at making tuition far more reasonable. Maybe some degrees do not need 4 yrs to complete. Why do students have to take ridiculous electives with course offerings in Lady Gaga or Beyonce? It's absurd.

I agree to a point. The "arms race" of college amenities is ridiculous. They make campuses better and better in an effort to attract more students and justify higher prices. When I went to college, it was fairly bare bones. No AC in most of the dorms, for example. No elevators on campus (of course that was pre-ADA). But I got a great education.

As for elective classes, I feel a little differently about those. To graduate, I was required to take a certain number of credits in Philosophy/Religion, History, Art/Music, etc. Sure, I could have gotten just what I needed for a Biology degree without all of that "fluff", but those classes made me a much more well-rounded person, improved my appreciation of the world around me, and, I think, ultimately helped make me a better doctor. And we always talk about college focusing on critical thinking. Nothing does that better than a good philosophy class or ethics or history review. Sure, they may use some pop culture hook to draw people in to a particular class, but that doesn't mean there aren't some valuable life lessons being taught in those classes.

There are places that are experimenting with shorter courses of study, though. I know some med schools have talked about this. Part of the primary care shortage may be related to the 7 years of training needed to do that when much of that time is spent on things that really aren't needed to practice primary care. Why do I need multiple 4-week surgery rotations? Once I finish training, I won't ever see an OR again unless I'm the patient on the table. Maybe a week or two of surgery, just to get a basic exposure to how things run, is sufficient. Maybe those 7 years of training could be reduce to 5 so that someone who wants to go into primary care can graduate with 100K less in debt and the lower income they will earn will be more in line with what it cost them to get there.

[Snicks]

I don't agree that it is a disincentive to pursue a more costly degree. I think one would take a real world look and then decide. And someone deciding to pursue the more costly degree is going into knowing it costs more and people tend to value things that they have to earn.

[disneysteve]

I don't agree that it is a disincentive to pursue a more costly degree. I think one would take a real world look and then decide. And someone deciding to pursue the more costly degree is going into knowing it costs more and people tend to value things that they have to earn.

The other problem there, though, is the overall cost of the education. You would likely end up attracting more lower income people to the lower income careers if they can't afford the higher tuition associated with the more lucrative careers. But that goes back to the underlying point of the need to make college more affordable overall.

[amarowsky]

Unless money is not an option... People ought to be spending on college as they would shop for most things that are long term investments. Realize that it IS a product, and not a "dream scenario" to live out....

I think my BA costed me like $35k total (Business administration) so I know it's basically a "throw away" degree, but it did it's job IMO. Job = Proved to employers I'm willing to defer gratification, sacrifice my time + money, and overall overcome the standardized testing proving that I recalled at least some of what I needed. Those who want to spend $200,000 on an engineering degree (can't imagine what type of degree and how inept that student would be to spend that long on a [assuming engineering B.S.] 4 year degree. ". I think some kids (and maybe their parents) romanticize college, and want to make it similar to "their dream wedding" and spend over because "it's a once in a lifetime event". This type of emotional pressure, on what should be a well decided, thoughtful, and pragmatic decision is likely what enables people to spend way more than they ought to.

The most significant benefit I can see to the elite universities, (IMO) maybe even >50% of the benefit.... Is being able to network with the hyper wealthy, elites, powerful, and celebrities children at these universities. It will surely provide more benefit than merely a degree (that type of networking that can lead to massive influence on landing a good job or funding a good idea). For instance my little cousin is going to Duke, and she's in classes with a LOT of politican's kids and other famous peoples children. You can only BUY that type of influence. And I would argue, that these folks are getting only a negligibly better intelligence. (I mean come on.... WIth Kahn Academy + MIT lectures all on youtube, no one has the true excuse of not having the best instruction money can buy. Let alone FREE, and you can just run it alongside your middle of the bell curve instructor at your state university, and have just as much information as those in the elite universities).

School is a product you can prove to someone on paper. Intelligence (both your genetic and learned) is abstract, and only useful to the individual, if they know where/when/how to deploy it to add value. Personally I would like to see a well designed merit based system on learning (so people could learn independent of university debt, and test into a certain level of "professional capability". That would REALLY cause the universities to become competitive (would be complex to guarantee integrity... but isnt it arleady? There are tons of degree holding Luddites I've crossed paths with in my day). .... Right now Universities are just running a monopoly on higher employment in USA.

[Fishindude77]

Unless money is not an option... People ought to be spending on college as they would shop for most things that are long term investments. Realize that it IS a product, and not a "dream scenario" to live out....
I think some kids (and maybe their parents) romanticize college, and want to make it similar to "their dream wedding" and spend over because "it's a once in a lifetime event". This type of emotional pressure, on what should be a well decided, thoughtful, and pragmatic decision is likely what enables people to spend way more than they ought to.

Agreed.
There is also a certain amount of "keeping up with the Jones" going on, particularly when it comes to the upscale college housing that is perceived to be needed.
When I got out of HS in the 70's the standard housing was two guys to a concrete block dorm room with a couple beds, desks and a closet. There was a shared restroom down the hallway and somewhere in the building a cafeteria where all meals were eaten on a meal plan, very economical. The only other options were a frat house or renting a dive apartment with some buddies, still pretty cheap. Today's modern college housing is much nicer than many of these kids ever lived in their entire lives and is likely more than they will be able to afford right after graduation; fancy new apartments with full private kitchens and bathrooms, swimming pools, etc. Wonder what percentage of these loans gets eaten up in fancy housing and other luxuries?

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Unless money is not an option... People ought to be spending on college as they would shop for most things that are long term investments. Realize that it IS a product, and not a "dream scenario" to live out....

I think my BA costed me like $35k total (Business administration) so I know it's basically a "throw away" degree, but it did it's job IMO. Job = Proved to employers I'm willing to defer gratification, sacrifice my time + money, and overall overcome the standardized testing proving that I recalled at least some of what I needed. Those who want to spend $200,000 on an engineering degree (can't imagine what type of degree and how inept that student would be to spend that long on a [assuming engineering B.S.] 4 year degree. ". I think some kids (and maybe their parents) romanticize college, and want to make it similar to "their dream wedding" and spend over because "it's a once in a lifetime event". This type of emotional pressure, on what should be a well decided, thoughtful, and pragmatic decision is likely what enables people to spend way more than they ought to.

The most significant benefit I can see to the elite universities, (IMO) maybe even >50% of the benefit.... Is being able to network with the hyper wealthy, elites, powerful, and celebrities children at these universities. It will surely provide more benefit than merely a degree (that type of networking that can lead to massive influence on landing a good job or funding a good idea). For instance my little cousin is going to Duke, and she's in classes with a LOT of politican's kids and other famous peoples children. You can only BUY that type of influence. And I would argue, that these folks are getting only a negligibly better intelligence. (I mean come on.... WIth Kahn Academy + MIT lectures all on youtube, no one has the true excuse of not having the best instruction money can buy. Let alone FREE, and you can just run it alongside your middle of the bell curve instructor at your state university, and have just as much information as those in the elite universities).

School is a product you can prove to someone on paper. Intelligence (both your genetic and learned) is abstract, and only useful to the individual, if they know where/when/how to deploy it to add value. Personally I would like to see a well designed merit based system on learning (so people could learn independent of university debt, and test into a certain level of "professional capability". That would REALLY cause the universities to become competitive (would be complex to guarantee integrity... but isnt it arleady? There are tons of degree holding Luddites I've crossed paths with in my day). .... Right now Universities are just running a monopoly on higher employment in USA.

At the same time I think the average student loan is $35k but no degree. So yes part of it is those people borrowing $200k. But i think more common is people borrowing say $35k and then not finishing school and being on the hook for loans they have nothing to show for . It's sort of like continually borrowing to buy a newer car and rolling the negative equity into another car and just extending the loan period. Until finally you can't borrow anymore and then you've hit the limit where you borrowed $40k for a $20k car because of past decisions.

I think we need to encourage cheaper options like CC and public schools and helping students realize that going to a college at any cost is not the answer. I am SHOCKED by parents who are paying so much for so many no-name universities. Paying to go to some crappy private college? Um why? Go to public university at 1/3 of the price and live at home if need be.

[mumof2]

In australia you can do what they call a hecs loan so you don't pay for college up front the govt does and when you go to work you start paying it back and they also take it out of your taxes...(sometimes)...makes it easier for people to attend college (uni) here

[riverwed070707]

Agreed.
There is also a certain amount of "keeping up with the Jones" going on, particularly when it comes to the upscale college housing that is perceived to be needed.
When I got out of HS in the 70's the standard housing was two guys to a concrete block dorm room with a couple beds, desks and a closet. There was a shared restroom down the hallway and somewhere in the building a cafeteria where all meals were eaten on a meal plan, very economical. The only other options were a frat house or renting a dive apartment with some buddies, still pretty cheap. Today's modern college housing is much nicer than many of these kids ever lived in their entire lives and is likely more than they will be able to afford right after graduation; fancy new apartments with full private kitchens and bathrooms, swimming pools, etc. Wonder what percentage of these loans gets eaten up in fancy housing and other luxuries?

Your description of housing describes my college dorm room to a T... and I graduated in 2008. Lived on the 8th floor and the elevator was always broken

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I also think student loans should be allowed in Bankruptcy. Then we'd see people declaring bankruptcy and banks might not be so into lending to everyone unlimited amounts. Right now banks feel they can lend without repercussions or looking at credit or potential

[Snicks]

Just a thought on student loans. What would prevent someone from taking cash advances from a CC and then using that to pay their student loan and then simply default with bankruptcy on the CCs?

[Snicks]

Loan forgiveness is a bandaid on a hemorrhage and not addressing the REAL issue which is the tuition in the first place. And, do degrees need to be dragged out over 4 yrs with month long breaks and summers off? The cost of housing and other room and board is what eats up a lot of income. If a degree could be obtained in a much more compact way, that would also reduce those costs. My kid's room and board is costly.

[disneysteve]

Just a thought on student loans. What would prevent someone from taking cash advances from a CC and then using that to pay their student loan and then simply default with bankruptcy on the CCs?

You could do that, though most people in that situation may not have enough of a credit line to make much of a dent in their student loans. If you owe 30K or 50K but only have a 10K credit line, you could knock out some of your debt but you'd still be stuck with the rest.

[bjl584]

I know a girl who had almost 100K in student loan debt due to changing majors and schools a couple times.
She never did graduate.

She got out of them by just going off the grid.
After her boyfriend got her pregnant she quit her job and became a stay at home mom.
Since they weren't married he filed taxes separately.
She had no reported income, so no need to worry about taxes anymore and no need for credit.
The lenders couldn't really do much to come after her or take anything from her.
She has a judgement levied against her on her credit report that she could care less about