Is defunding the police a good idea or bad idea?

[QuarterMillionMan]

Los Angeles mayor Eric Garcetti is defunding the LAPD by $150 million and increasing social services by $250 million. IMHO, less cops cannot be a good thing.

[kork13]

Los Angeles mayor Eric Garcetti is defunding the LAPD by $150 million and increasing social services by $250 million. IMHO, less cops cannot be a good thing.

Agreed. Funding isn't the problem or solution. Proper training & discipline are (which yes, may require additional funding), and a focus on fixing inappropriate, bullying, menacing cultures. There's alot of consternation about the "militarization" of police forces... as a military servicemember myself, I take significant exception to that description.

While some police departments are purchasing military (or military-like) equipment, military servicemembers also get a high degree of professionalism, military restraint, and proper use of force hammered into us....repeatedly. And if/when someone violates those principles, we hold our own to account (via the UCMJ legal code), and frankly, tend to punish use-of-force violations harshly. We treat the public trust as sacrosanct, and violations are not tolerated.

That's often not what is seen in police departments (or individual officers) that inappropriately view themselves as some municipal military force. SWAT teams in particular act like cowboys with too much firepower and not enough discretion or restraint. When someone goes too far, it's up to the court system to address the issue, and police unions protect their own to outrageous extremes, calling it "loyalty" when they defend someone who has done wrong and violated the department's values. Toxic cultures like that are what need to be addressed.

[QuarterMillionMan]

The Los Angeles police union said mayor Eric Garcetti has lost his mind.

[disneysteve]

I haven't followed the story at all. What is his reasoning for cutting their funding? Is it just punitive in some way? I would think they need funding to cover reform efforts and retraining and whatever else is needed (body cams, etc.).

[QuarterMillionMan]

I haven't followed the story at all. What is his reasoning for cutting their funding? Is it just punitive in some way? I would think they need funding to cover reform efforts and retraining and whatever else is needed (body cams, etc.).

Mayor Garcetti just gave his daily news briefing and I dictated it as best that I could.
Every life is sacred. 1st COVID, 2nd economic devastation, hopelessness & helplessness. Now racism. Too unequal for many. Inequality affects all of us but especially AA. Raw & fragile. Making progress. My role as mayor is to guide. Door has opened for change. But pain held by AA. Commissioner AA was jogging in Beverly Hills during COVID but no one would help. Need to hold people accountable. Failure to deal with mental health, schools, etc. Sharing resources. Want graduates instead of drop outs. Not anit-anything. Pro Los Angeles. Bold, brave, and a start. Want change get out and vote. Leads to peace. All have a voice. Join our police force, it's a noble thing to protect all. $250 million to invest in jobs. Enough is enough of racism. Spoke with speaker Pelosi to bring our matters to DC. Stopping homelessness before it happens. Funds to expand community partnerships. Restore voting rights to those on parole. Civil & rights commission to restore justice (ie, education, social services, etc.).

[mumof2]

That's often not what is seen in police departments (or individual officers) that inappropriately view themselves as some municipal military force. SWAT teams in particular act like cowboys with too much firepower and not enough discretion or restraint. When someone goes too far, it's up to the court system to address the issue, and police unions protect their own to outrageous extremes, calling it "loyalty" when they defend someone who has done wrong and violated the department's values. Toxic cultures like that are what need to be addressed.[/QUOTE]

Completely agree...but taking money away will lessen the amount of police and crime will go up and then people will be up in arms again but for a different reason...but unfortunately in the last act like George Floyd it was murder and it was a hate crime and that can't or won't change until the police are charged and jailed for it...all 4 of them...then and only then will police start to be held accountable, community will start trusting the police etc...many police disagreed with what happened and have spoken out and have been in trouble for that but they didn't care they said "if you as a police officer watch that video and do nothing then you are the issue" so hopefully you will weed out the bad cops, and things can heal...but by defunding them right now will cause issues!!...but they do need to put more into the social issues!!

[QuarterMillionMan]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/75-old-man-shoved-ground-142946876.html

[~bs]

bad idea.

The model on which law enforcement is built needs to change. But the corrupt baby shouldn't be thrown out with the bath water. The problem with police is the environment and culture breeds and encourages deviant behavior with little opportunity for correction or reform unless someone is seriously hurt. And even then, not guaranteed unless 3rd party video exists. It's a culture that creates a brotherhood of insiders, everyone involved within law enforcement, the unions, the judges, prosecutors, etc. Everyone willing to cover up and scratch each others backs to arrive at the conclusion. Which is to get the person the cop arrested behind bars, innocent or guilty.

Not all bad apples exist within the police, some truly want to do their job, which is to serve and protect the public. But a lot of this culture is VERY apparent in the protests, in which cops are not willing to stop another cop engaged in misconduct. Instead, they support each other. The courts support them. The chief supports them. The medical examiner supports them. etc etc. DESPITE obvious misconduct.

[disneysteve]

~bs is right. A lot of people like to throw out the "it's only a few bad apples" expression, but the actual expression is "a few bad apples spoil the bunch". You can't just excuse the actions of the few. If a few are bad, the problem affects all, especially when the majority aren't willing to step up and take action and speak out against the few bad ones. The issues are systemic and societal.

[Snicks]

OK, well then we can all buy more guns and meet out our own brand of justice.

[Smallsteps]

I think those pushing these de-fund all police ideas are also the ones that Seemed "surprised" at the amount of criminals who were released early for Covid-19 often committed crimes almost immediately. OUR court system is packed and overrun now ...........when vigilante justice starts what will we have then.

Honestly there is not a one size fits all answer. Are there people that should not be police officers _ YES .
Did they have issues before starting job or did something change? Can they be weeded out prior to hiring? The "training" that often presented as police are guilty until proven innocent approach ......often has no effect.
I can think of MANY PROFESSIONS that have people that, IMO are not suited for that work.

There is NO excuse for what happened in MN but once again some do not want to discuss they want the most extreme measure they can think up. This will be a bad situation since after reading MN statutes it may be hard to convict if in the middle of a media frenzy they charge something they cannot prove.

Charge too high and lose and then don't get a second chance... BUT the public wants the most severe charge not seeing they are setting up for acquittal

It has only been a few years since the body cameras were suppose to be the answer it was suppose to show all the rouge police... in MANY cases it showed the opposite.
Videos from the public sometimes start after an encounter started and might not encompass the WHOLE story.............. yet we seem to have the court of public opinion making social media verdicts.

All one needs to do is watch PD live and PD body Cam to see even the smallest things often Unnecessarily get escalated from both sides but IMO more often the public.

I am always amazed in watching these type shows the amount of people (Of all races/ sex etc) driving without a license let alone insurance or those who take a combative approach immediately with officers. People fleeing from being pulled over for something small that often was just a ticket and a fine. Running just makes police or even bystanders assume you did something really bad. TOO many people are often impaired as well.
All involved are human and once adrenaline starts flowing things can and sometimes will go wrong.

Many defense attorneys no longer wanted body camera footage shown. Hard to say your client is perfect when they are on camera doing they very thing that is in a report.

[QuarterMillionMan]

I have an idea. Since cities & states wants to either defund or abolish police, why not have police services privatized and everyone pay a subscription for police services. If you don't want it, don't get it.

[rennigade]

Edit by moderator: This is really part of the discussion about defunding the police so I'm going to move this into that thread.

There's been so much talk about police brutality and how they interact with the public. How could this ever change considering most of what they do is interacting with criminals every day and the mindset it takes to do such work.

Imagine being a cop. Almost every time you make contact with someone, its because something is out of the norm. Almost every one lies to them. Even something as simple as a speeding ticket. When they approach a window of a car, they could be met with the barrel of a gun, and that could be their last day. They are on edge 24/7...because that is the line of work they are in.

Does anyone here know someone who is/was on the force? A lot of cops share a lot of similarities. Alcoholism, divorce, anger issues. Hmm...I wonder why? PTSD anyone? You think you need to be in some far off land serving in the military to get ptsd? I dont think so. Why isnt this being discussed?

And yes, we all know that absolute power corrupts absolutely. So whats the better option? Not have police? Let the good hearted citizens police themselves? What do you think happens if there are less police?

Im more surprised that the general public hasnt even considered ptsd than I am of some random people getting killed by police.

[disneysteve]

I read an article about this issue this morning. It really isn't as wild an idea as it first sounds. The thinking is that much of what the police deal with on a daily basis - domestic violence, mental illness, homelessness - could be more effectively addressed through other means and by professionals better trained and equipped to deal with them. Reducing the size of the police force and using that money to instead build your community social services and bring on more professionals in those areas could result in less crime.

It's a pretty interesting concept actually. Properly done it could very well work. I don't think anyone would argue that social services and mental health resources in this country are horrendously inadequate and that's what fuels so much of our crime.

[disneysteve]

And yes, we all know that absolute power corrupts absolutely. So whats the better option? Not have police? Let the good hearted citizens police themselves? What do you think happens if there are less police?

You are absolutely right that being a police officer is an extremely high stress job, putting you life on the line every time you walk out the door. And yes, PTSD is a huge problem and surely isn't adequately addressed.

But as I said in my earlier post, perhaps part of the problem is that in general, police officers aren't adequately trained for much of what they are called to do. Maybe a lot of that work would be more effectively addressed by folks with mental health training or social work training or addiction training. Maybe rather than treating everybody as a criminal, we need to focus more on the issues that led to them committing that crime. Maybe a reduced police force and a larger social services system could result in less crime overall. Take a more community-based and team-based approach. Arresting someone for some minor offense, tossing them in jail for a week or a month, and then putting them back out on the street without doing anything at all to address their situation really doesn't accomplish anything.

Police definitely need better support. Maybe this is part of how we accomplish that.