Universal Basic Income / UBI / Freedom Div. - we should talk about this.

[amarowsky]

Hey Gang,

Purpose:
Discuss UBI

Background:
In light of all the stimulus discussion. I had heard from my sources, the UBI term floated around a lot as a potential solution to test out during this corona virus pandemic.

I thought we had discussed this economic theory before, but I couldn't really find anything when searching that had a direct thread on this. My close friends and I (fairly diverse group ethically/socially/economically) have started discussing the pro's and con's compared to the existing system of welfare/social assistance/social security.

Reason:
My sentiments are we should all start sharing perspectives, ideas, theories, pitfalls, and opinions on this. As this is being discussed openly. I hope we can keep any partisan issues aside, and just discuss the policy, mechanisms, function, outcomes, costs, and blind/bright spots that this may reveal. My only wish is to minimize extreme anecdotal stories, that pull away from the issue(they're usually to focused to allow for most to reference/compare logically) Let's try and look at this w/ the widest net to figure out if we agree/disagree that is will have positive/neutral/negative outcomes.

Maybe we can start off w/ general thought and start to hammer out our disagreements, details, and possible solutions. (I should note, UBI is not the only alternative, some have suggested expanding/broadening other social programs, like unemployment benefits/insurance, and we should consider them as alternatives/substitutes as well.

My Stance(s):

At 1st , I thought UBI was interesting. (roughly starting around 2018). Some of the numbers made since, and sounded a new idea. (instead of us just "wah'ing" about the current system)
2nd though = most of 2019 until recent - Not as interested. (Different discussions, perspectives made me neutral, to possibly leaning against).
Current = I think im like 6.5 to 7 / 10 , that I think a version of this UBI/Freedom dividend would be a more efficient, effective, and helpful unique utility that USA may likely benefit from. Especially in a non-economically discriminate threat, like Corona Virus.

The UBI I'm referring to is broadly/roughly described as: $1000 per adult monthly, taxes to fund this will be partially funded by removing/integrating/reducing other social programs, + some form of value added tax or similar tax adjustment to route some funding away from other resources ---> UBI fund. Idea being, if you are a consumer, citizen, and participant in the US economy. You should be entitled to your 1 life share of a portion of it's success. As you are one of the many cogs, that allow this economic machine to proceed.

Let's hear it gang! This could be an ulgy one, but I think we need to get on the same wavelength, so I (and we all) can get away from the "elephant problem" and have a better view @ the "whole problem".

[rennigade]

It sounds nice on paper, but its probably impossible to implement. I will say, if we start receiving $2k/month, we'll retire in our early 40's. There wont be a reason for us to continue working, which would be awesome!

How many billions will it cost to send a one time check to everyone? Imagine that, each and every month. Ive heard the argument, get rid of disability, welfare, SS, medicare, etc etc. its just too messy.

[disneysteve]

UBI would be far more efficient and much cheaper to administer than our current patchwork system of welfare. It would also remove a lot of the stigma and discrimination that comes with receiving assistance.

The first thing that has to happen is that people need to stop blaming poverty on the poor people. It's not their fault. We've had this discussion here before and there are those here who disagree with this statement, and they're certainly not alone. It's very easy to say that poor people are poor because they make bad decisions, lack motivation, and could all be doing just fine if they would put in the effort, but that simply isn't true. A great many things are stacked against the poor in our system. Sure, it's possible to overcome that, but it's exceedingly difficult and virtually impossible for many.

Getting back to UBI, I'm all in favor of doing away with the whole food stamp program, WIC program, and other forms of financial assistance and just sending everyone who qualifies a check every month. The reduction in administrative costs would be huge, and that money could all go toward the actual benefits. Fund the rest however you'd like. Maybe a 1% federal sales tax. Maybe adjusting the income tax structure. I'm sure there are other feasible options.

Will some people squander their checks? Of course they will, but that's no different than what happens now. People buy potato chips and Coke with their food stamps. People get baby formula through WIC and sell it to buy cocaine. You can never eliminate abuse of any system, but the perfect should never be the enemy of the good.

Andrew Yang made UBI a centerpiece of his campaign. Even though he didn't get far with his candidacy, I think he succeeded in making UBI a more mainstream topic and idea.

[disneysteve]

How many billions will it cost to send a one time check to everyone? Imagine that, each and every month. Ive heard the argument, get rid of disability, welfare, SS, medicare, etc etc. its just too messy.

How much do we spend NOW to administer all of the existing social programs?

[alliecat79]

We have a wave of mass unemployment coming with the automation of vehicles and other areas of industry. We need to visit UBI eventually anyway. Now seems like a great time given our economy is essentially frozen.

[bjl584]

This is one of those things like the flat tax that sounds and looks good. Might work. But probably will never happen.

Personally, I don't know enough about it or enough about current welfare and assistance programs to have an educated opinion.

[rennigade]

How much do we spend NOW to administer all of the existing social programs?

Yeah, thats the big question. If we can do away with most of those and adapt the ubi and its basically a 1 for 1...im all for it.

[disneysteve]

Yeah, thats the big question. If we can do away with most of those and adapt the ubi and its basically a 1 for 1...im all for it.

I doubt it would be 1:1 but it isn't like UBI would be a totally new expense on top of what is already being spent. It would be replacing a lot of current spending.

[riverwed070707]

I started a post on this a while back. Tried to find it but I think maybe it got lost in that site crash where we lost a bunch of posts last summer. I had never heard of UBI until Andrew Yang's campaign. Was definitely skeptical when I first heard about it but the more I read, the more I loved it and it just makes so much sense. Primary selling points for me:
-It's not a fix everything plan, but its certainly a help everything plan - Need student loan debt relief? UBI can help. No paid leave from work? UBI can help. Want to start your own business but can't afford health insurance? UBI can help. Need a hand up or additional training to get out of your minimum wage job? UBI can help. Just had a baby and no or not enough paid maternity leave? UBI can help.
-Agree with DS that removing the stigma with welfare is needed and necessary. Can't tell you how many times I've read or heard "but if I make that much more money, I'll lose my assistance AND ALSO be making less than I would have if I stayed on assistance. It's a broken system.
-I have always been a proponent of consumer-based tax. Instead of continuing to maximize taxes on the middle class, let's tax the spenders. They're still going to spend VAT or not. It's the best of both when it comes to a sort of luxury tax for high spenders but also has lower income people pay in their share as well based on how they spend their money.

I just honestly can't think of anything more fair and economically beneficial that a consumer based tax and across the board UBI. All these other debt relief programs, stimulus, tax cuts or hikes are just doing the same crap we've always done and are extremely short sighted in what our workforce is going to look like in 10-20 years.

ETA: While I do feel there is a wage gap problem in our society, I have always had a hard time getting behind a minimum wage increase. Just seems to me like wages go up, cost of goods will go up as a direct effect. It also devalues the pay/salary/worth of those making over $15/hour. If I'm a manager making $16/hr and all my employees get a raise to $15, do I get a raise too? Do the raises go all the way to the top? Where does it stop? Just seems like it could be highly complex and ultimately consumers will pay the price on essential goods and services and we will have made no progress. UBI is funded by companies using automation and eliminating the workforce. You can't charge income tax on robots but you certainly can tax the goods and services they provide and redistribute it to the people.

[disneysteve]

-It's not a fix everything plan, but its certainly a help everything plan - Need student loan debt relief? UBI can help. No paid leave from work? UBI can help. Want to start your own business but can't afford health insurance? UBI can help. Need a hand up or additional training to get out of your minimum wage job? UBI can help. Just had a baby and no or not enough paid maternity leave? UBI can help.

I love this. Exactly this. It will help so many social issues and do so at far lower cost than any other way to address them.

[bjl584]

I love this. Exactly this. It will help so many social issues and do so at far lower cost than any other way to address them.

Should there be stipulations to the money?
Load it on a debit card and have it programmed so only certain transactions can be processed for instance?
Using $1000 for childcare or student loans is one thing.
Using it for crystal meth is another.....

[rennigade]

Should there be stipulations to the money?
Load it on a debit card and have it programmed so only certain transactions can be processed for instance?
Using $1000 for childcare or student loans is one thing.
Using it for crystal meth is another.....

Would it make a difference if there were stipulations? If its loaded to a card and say you can only purchase food. If im an addict, im going in, buying 4 fillets for $45...walking outside and selling them for $20 cash on the spot.

Even for myself, who isnt an addict. If the money can only be spent on food, I could buy up things and sell them for 50% off, just to have the cash, so I can then go buy whatever I want.

[bjl584]

Would it make a difference if there were stipulations? If its loaded to a card and say you can only purchase food. If im an addict, im going in, buying 4 fillets for $45...walking outside and selling them for $20 cash on the spot.

Even for myself, who isnt an addict. If the money can only be spent on food, I could buy up things and sell them for 50% off, just to have the cash, so I can then go buy whatever I want.

you'll never prevent something 100% but you can at least try to minimize abuse.

[ua_guy]

Walking into the middle of the discussion. One thing that keeps resonating (not in a good way) in my mind is one of the recent talking points about handing out stimulus checks and/or paid sick leave for workers. I know that's not UBI, but the sentiment from one party was that they didn't want to create an incentive for people to not work. I found the statement to be incredibly off-color and inappropriate given the current state of affairs. The sick leave is literally so people can slow the spread, recover, or take care of their families and the stimulus check is literally for squandering, because saving it actually doesn't help the economy. Stick with me...I'm making a point here.

Same for UBI, that will be the greatest challenge. There are too many people who think the point of life is to work and die, and that by keeping people hungry and on the financial edge (often in miserable jobs) keeps an economy of incentivized workers. It's all just so ****ing sad.

I truly believe--and other countries have provided plenty of evidence--that when basic provisions and UBI are made available that people generally have better health, they live longer. For business that's awesome because employees won't ever be destitute. And for employees and the average joe it's awesome because they can take risks knowing that there will be something, even if it's meager, at the bottom should they ever fall that far. This culture of competition and work-until-death in the US absolutely disgusts me. There should be life after work. We should take care of people--and no--we shouldn't care how they spend that money, because that's an individual choice.

If the money is made available to everyone, there should be no stigma in taking it. We have a very serious culture problem in the US and beyond that I think our priorities are way off the mark. UBI would absolutely help.

[disneysteve]

Should there be stipulations to the money?

Does your employer put stipulations on your paycheck? Are there stipulations on an unemployment check or disability payment? Will there be stipulations on the stimulus checks being sent out soon? The answer is no to all of that. It's your money to spend as you see fit. That exactly as it should be with UBI. It's your money. Do whatever you want with it.

Will somebody somewhere use it to buy drugs? Of course, just as they do with whatever income they get now. You aren't going to magically cure addiction by telling people - "See these dollars over in this pile? You can't use these dollars to buy pot. You can only use the dollars you have over there in that other pile." It doesn't work that way.

As soon as you try to become the morality police, the system fails to accomplish its intended purpose.