Food and Socioeconomic Status

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Recently I had this conversation with a friend about food and socioeconmic status. I believe that no matter what your economic status does affect how you eat. So I have a friend (Ms Jones) who is very wealthy, both trust fund wealthy, and her husband makes $500k+/year.

She eats out probably most meals of the week and still spends $2k/month on organic groceries (her quoted number). Mostly spending on fresh fruits, veggies, milk, etc. I mean everything she buys is out of control. So when we were discussing kids she said "i want to send her 15 year old to south america either spring break or summer to do habitat for humanity so she can learn about poverty and helping others." I suggested she stay in the city and work at a shelter here and get a summer job. Ms Jones said "oh she needs to learn about being poor." So I said "Well then make a budget of $600-800/month for groceries and live a middle class life like most people do". Ms Jones "oh i've paid my dues, and DK1 understands that she has to pay for stuff like her fancy shampoo or $8 bottle drinks from whole foods. I think I've well prepared her for living in the real world."

So Ms Jones totally doesn't live in reality financially. She doesn't get that most of us are struggling to keep our grocery bills in triple digits. NO one eats out most days of the week. Most of us eat out 1-2x/week and we try to keep all food under $1k/month. Some people live on $2k total a month. Food, eating out, clothing, gas, electric, etc. So everything. I don't think she at all lives in reality that most people aren't buying $47/lb brie cheese every week, or $20/lb fish. Or giving a four year old half goat milk/ half one cow milk to drink?

Can you really teach financial reality when you live like that? When you can afford to live very well, her older child goes to private school at the tune of $45k/year and she said it's "diverse" because kids from all over the world come. So it's a great place. But I'd argue there is no socioeconomic diversity? And truly how diverse ethnically or religiously is it as well?

I find more and more that really rich people are out of touch with reality. What are your thoughts? And when you are that wealthy can you teach your kids how to live on less when they get out of school and aren't making $100k+ to live on an eat they way they've always eaten growing up? How do you change from elite class to middle class?

[corn18]

I can answer the question directly. My 19yo DD grew up wanting for nothing. Car, horse(s), lessons, allowance, everything provided for and all set to go to a $50,000 / year private college. She decided she wanted to move out and live on her own and has been doing so since March of this year. She makes $9.75 an hour in a full time job. She pays all her own bills and eats at Taco bell because she can get 2 burritos for $2 which is way cheaper than trying to buy lunch meat at $7.99 a pound. She has no TV, no internet, she has a cell phone. A dollar means a lot to her and I know some days she is hungry. That's when she stops by the house for a snack. I desperately fight the urge to give her money to make all her problems go away. I know that will not work.

She is making it, although she is below the poverty level. She has a livable apartment. She has a budget. She saves money. She is going to start community college in January because she has realized that an education is important to getting a better paying job. She has no debt. She NEVER asks me for money, although we bought her a coat for winter. By any measure, she is living on her own and managing well enough. She knows how to live poor after being raised rich.

I am proud of her and allow her to live her life with no financial intervention on my part. I will pay for her college if she keeps her grades up.

So, yes, a kid raised in a rich family can learn how to live poor.

Tom

[Joan.of.the.Arch]

It sounds as if your daughter is learning quite well, but "officially" she is not considered poor in the US.

From Health & Human Services, 2014
1-- $11,670
2-- 15,730
3-- 19,790
4-- 23,850
5-- 27,910
6-- 31,970
7-- 36,030
8-- 40,090

I think young people of ANY family income level can have trouble adjusting to supporting and feeding themselves on their own young incomes. To be honest, though, I do not know any wealthy families, so I don't have any impression as to whether kids from wealthy families handle it harder than kids from middle class or lower families.

[corn18]

It sounds as if your daughter is learning quite well, but "officially" she is not considered poor in the US.

From Health & Human Services, 2014
1-- $11,670
2-- 15,730
3-- 19,790
4-- 23,850
5-- 27,910
6-- 31,970
7-- 36,030
8-- 40,090

I think young people of ANY family income level can have trouble adjusting to supporting and feeding themselves on their own young incomes. To be honest, though, I do not know any wealthy families, so I don't have any impression as to whether kids from wealthy families handle it harder than kids from middle class or lower families.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll let her know.

[snafu]

LAL, your comments reminded me of an experiment a number of our Members of Parliament [like your Senators] carried out a number of years ago. They agreed to live on income of a welfare recipient for 3 months. They left their pleasant, furnished apartments in our capital and found rooms in various boarding houses, relinquished car and driver with a plan to use public transportation and had a list of food banks and meals on offer from shelters. Only a couple of the group lasted an entire month. They all felt themselves in constant danger, didn't really acknowledge the difficulties of personal hygiene, clothes, laundry, cooking utensils, and how difficult it was to get from point A to B in a reasonable time. The major difference was they knew they could step back into their 'privileged' lives in a nanosecond. The indigent see no way to improve their circumstances.

Is the 15 y/o required to do chores at home? S/he'd will learn there are very, very poor people in Brazil and possibly some very basic skill sets like serving food to the workers or fetch and carry but I'd be surprised if s/he'd even learn to do their own laundry. Underlying it all is that the child know that return to their normal environment is merely a number of days.

[rennigade]

I have a friend who had a husband (he's dead now) who made $50k/month, so around $600k/year. They had 2 nice homes but didnt drive anything out of the ordinary. You wouldnt have known how much they were worth. Never judge a book by its cover, thats for sure. Anyway...they had 1 daughter whos in college now. Shes the opposite of a spoiled rich brat. She's really down to earth. It all depends how they were raised...but even then its a crap shoot. So yes...it is possible for a really privileged kid to come out "normal."

I do think that most rich people who have children are at a real disadvantage without their parents, let alone money. They were dealt a good hand in life...thats about it. Unfortunately a lot of them turn out to be useless, even with their connections their parents have formed.

[disneysteve]

I think young people of ANY family income level can have trouble adjusting to supporting and feeding themselves on their own young incomes.

We frequently speak to our daughter about what our lives looked like in the past, both growing up and once we were out of school, on our own, and newly married. We want her to understand that we have not always enjoyed the lifestyle we have today. She's old enough (19) to at least vaguely remember some of the earlier times, like staying in cheap motels instead of nice hotels when we traveled.

The point is to make sure she understands that when she ventures out on her own, there will be some sacrifices and struggles along the way. She isn't going to instantly have all that she is used to at home. She'll have to budget and make choices and priorities.

I think some of the problem is not the kids but the parents who don't want to see their offspring struggle so they keep giving them money well into adulthood rather than letting the kids stand on their own and live within their own means.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I wonder though how do you teach a child like Tomhole said to expect less when they've always had more? When they've always bought organic and been told "you shouldn't poison your body," and shopped at whole foods but then suddenly to go to a newly minted college graduate salary? How do you adjust? How do you teach your child the sacrifices?

And for those who aren't super rich but well off, how do you teach even getting like DS to an upper middle class lifestyle that probably isn't possible when you are 22? Seeing my friend and her true disconnect about how the lifestyle she has and is giving her kids can't be done at 22. I wonder if I'll be in the same boat in 10 years?

I know we're ahead because now we just tell my four year old "we can't afford choice of shoes, this is it." But she can give choices. But how to draw the line and tell them as they get older how much you can afford or should.

Snafu hit it. It's one thing to go volunteering in these poorer countries, but the truth is you always know you are stepping back into privilege.

What happens when you aren't at that class?

Tom how long has your daughter been living the way she has? Has she decided to go back to school and get a better paying job? What's her life plan? Was this something she really wanted to do?

[disneysteve]

how do you teach even getting like DS to an upper middle class lifestyle that probably isn't possible when you are 22?

I think it is a life lesson that has to be taught from early childhood on with age-appropriate language and examples all along the way. Teaching basic personal finance and budgeting is critically important. Of course, leading by example is also key. Our daughter knows that there are some things for which we will pay a premium and other things for which we will head to Goodwill or the local farmer's market or flea market to get cheap. And even when we do pay a premium, I'll use it as a teaching moment to point out that if we didn't have the money, there are cheaper alternatives - especially when I can tell her how we used to use the cheaper alternative when that's what we could afford. So she sometimes sees us shop at more costly stores like Williams Sonoma or Whole Foods or Macy's while other times we shop at cheaper places like Target or WalMart or Wegmans or the local flea/farmer's market. She understands that whatever your budget, there are options that fit it.

The organic food question is a good one though. If you've brainwashed them into thinking conventional food is toxic, I don't know how they'll handle that. I can't speak from experience there since we aren't in that group.

[corn18]

I do think that most rich people who have children are at a real disadvantage without their parents, let alone money. They were dealt a good hand in life...thats about it. Unfortunately a lot of them turn out to be useless, even with their connections their parents have formed.

Would love to see the data that supports this generalization. My observation is exactly the opposite.

[corn18]

Tom how long has your daughter been living the way she has? Has she decided to go back to school and get a better paying job? What's her life plan? Was this something she really wanted to do?

She's been on her own since March of this year.

She is going to school to study marketing and sales which after 4 jobs, is what she has decided to pursue as her career.

Yes, she made the decision to move out on her own. Not an easy decision as us rich parents had her all set for the upper class life of a college student going to private equestrian college. Luckily she was able to escape the evil tyranny that comes with being the child of parents that made and spent a lot of money and is learning how to be a useful member of society now.

Tom

[disneysteve]

I do think that most rich people who have children are at a real disadvantage without their parents, let alone money. They were dealt a good hand in life...thats about it. Unfortunately a lot of them turn out to be useless, even with their connections their parents have formed.

I think what matters a lot more is what values the parents instill in the children. Are the kids required to work? Do the parents know how to say "no"?

I know plenty of spoiled brats with middle class parents. I know plenty of spoiled brats with poor parents. I know quite a few spoiled brats with rich parents. I don't think it's how much money the parents have that determine how the kids turn out.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Recently I had this conversation with a friend about food and socioeconmic status. I believe that no matter what your economic status does affect how you eat. So I have a friend (Ms Jones) who is very wealthy, both trust fund wealthy, and her husband makes $500k+/year.

She eats out probably most meals of the week and still spends $2k/month on organic groceries (her quoted number). Mostly spending on fresh fruits, veggies, milk, etc. I mean everything she buys is out of control. So when we were discussing kids she said "i want to send her 15 year old to south america either spring break or summer to do habitat for humanity so she can learn about poverty and helping others." I suggested she stay in the city and work at a shelter here and get a summer job. Ms Jones said "oh she needs to learn about being poor." So I said "Well then make a budget of $600-800/month for groceries and live a middle class life like most people do". Ms Jones "oh i've paid my dues, and DK1 understands that she has to pay for stuff like her fancy shampoo or $8 bottle drinks from whole foods. I think I've well prepared her for living in the real world."

So Ms Jones totally doesn't live in reality financially. She doesn't get that most of us are struggling to keep our grocery bills in triple digits. NO one eats out most days of the week. Most of us eat out 1-2x/week and we try to keep all food under $1k/month. Some people live on $2k total a month. Food, eating out, clothing, gas, electric, etc. So everything. I don't think she at all lives in reality that most people aren't buying $47/lb brie cheese every week, or $20/lb fish. Or giving a four year old half goat milk/ half one cow milk to drink?

Can you really teach financial reality when you live like that? When you can afford to live very well, her older child goes to private school at the tune of $45k/year and she said it's "diverse" because kids from all over the world come. So it's a great place. But I'd argue there is no socioeconomic diversity? And truly how diverse ethnically or religiously is it as well?

I find more and more that really rich people are out of touch with reality. What are your thoughts? And when you are that wealthy can you teach your kids how to live on less when they get out of school and aren't making $100k+ to live on an eat they way they've always eaten growing up? How do you change from elite class to middle class?

"Organic" is a marketing ploy to get the truly gullible to pay more for the same items. See "green" as well.

[rennigade]

"Organic" is a marketing ploy to get the truly gullible to pay more for the same items. See "green" as well.

The only time I buy organic is when its cheaper than the non organic stuff...which isnt too often.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

But it's not just food but it translate often to other things like clothes shopping. Instead of old navy, buying abercrombie. Instead of Target going to nordstrom. It's often times going from high end to low end. How do you explain that you can't afford that?