Tithing, Giving, Charity while in Debt & Dave Ramsey

[kyrie]

And yeah, not all churches (and similarly "charities") are created equal...

[klarose]

As a Christian I am of the mind set that if I can't handle the 90% I am given why do I think I'd do any better with 100%.

I always tithed, and I always have. Even when I was a child. My parents don't, so it was completely something I felt led to do.

Would that money be nice in my retirement, yep. But I continue giving because I figure if God wanted me to put that in retirement, he would give me more. And He does.

So far I have found I have always been blessed enough to never have to decide to tithe or pay my electric bill. Thank goodness.

It is a personal opinion, and each person will have to decide for themselves what they believe.

I won't tell anyone if they should or shouldn't tithe, I just know that it works for me. My tithes are the first thing that comes out of my check, and I've been doing it so long I don't even think about it.

[Petunia 100]

I personally find it hard to give unless I can see it making a difference with my own eyes. I will pay for exchange for some soft of services, for example I go to church once a year at Christmas and don't mind giving then.

I just feel that with a lot of charities, there is so much administrative overhead that you're making the wrong people wealthier (the fat cats at the head of charity) and very little of your money is reaching those who really need it.

Am I off base?

I don't think you are off base at all. I think it is a good idea to check out the public info to see how a charity is using your money.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/

At the same time, I think you need to be mindful that of course an organization cannot completely avoid administrative costs and overhead. Also, heading a large organization is a specialized skill which not everyone can do effectively. I have read criticism of the American Red Cross, which spends 90.7% of donations directly on its programs, saying they pay their CEO too much. However, a 600k salary is tiny in comparison to the salary of most Fortune 500 companies. You can't offer a CEO 40k per year and expect to get competent, qualified applicants. The American Red Cross is a huge organization, so I feel the comparison to Fortune 500 companies is apt.

And NEVER give to those "charities" which directly call you. Those are fundraising for-profit companies, which do raise money for legitimate charities, but take their cut first. Instead, give directly to the organizations which you wish to support.

[phantom]

I'm a Christian who grew up learning that one should to give to the the local church whatever amount feels comfortable. My husband grew up learning that one should tithe. We tithe, because giving 10% of my husband's income and some lesser percentage of mine would feel wrong to me. Interestingly, when we were planning to get married, right after we decided that I would increase my contributions to the church to 10%, we received enough in raises to offset the planned increase in giving. My husband sees this as clear evidence that God does indeed take care of those who choose to tithe. I'm much more sold on tithing than I was, but I'm still a bit uncertain as to how literally true that always is.

If someone strongly believes in tithing or even in just giving something, I think debt is usually a poor excuse not to give. If a person can genuinely say that skipping giving is the only way to keep up with debt payments, maintain a place to live, or be able to afford food, I think it's debatable whether or that person should still give. But, I don't think it's reasonable to skip giving to get out of debt faster or to be able to maintain even the smallest of luxuries.

The reason I say that it's still debatable whether or not giving should still happen even when it seems that it's either that or not be able to meet some basic need is because, on some level, I believe that God that will always take care of people who do what He asks. But, in practice, my belief in that area definitely gets shaky. In my mind, it's part of a much larger theological debate, right up there with whether or not there are situations where lying and killing are justified. (Unless you'd rather debate whether or not tithing is something God actually asks.)

I think it's possible to argue that it's okay to skip giving while paying particularly high interest rates because one would have more money to give over the course of a life time by getting out of debt more quickly. But, I think that's a dangerous line of reasoning because it makes it difficult to say when it makes sense to start giving. It also makes the assumption that God can't use your gifts to get better returns than you can.

[Eagle]

Interesting question. I suppose you could say that as long as you are current on your debt payments, even if you are only making the minimum payments each month, what you do with the money you have is your own business. The creditor is happy and you are complying with the loan agreement. It might not be smart to give money away rather than paying your own bills but it isn't illegal or immoral.

If, however, you are behind on payments, I think that's a different story. At that point, I think you need to be on an extreme bare bones plan where you don't spend a penny unnecessarily and do everything you can to uphold your end of the loan deals.

This makes a lot of sense DisneySteve. So how would we approach people who are in the second category (2nd paragraph) who are on government assistence (food stamps, housing assistance, and so forth to survive) and can't pay their bills but don't want to give up their charity donation? What kind of advice is there for them?

[bjl584]

This makes a lot of sense DisneySteve. So how would we approach people who are in the second category (2nd paragraph) who are on government assistence (food stamps, housing assistance, and so forth to survive) and can't pay their bills but don't want to give up their charity donation? What kind of advice is there for them?

How many people are actually in that boat? Probably not many. But, the advice wouldn't change. Take care of your own household before you start giving to others. Pretty straightforward, but probably easier said than done.

[Eagle]

I'm a Christian who grew up learning that one should to give to the the local church whatever amount feels comfortable. My husband grew up learning that one should tithe. We tithe, because giving 10% of my husband's income and some lesser percentage of mine would feel wrong to me. Interestingly, when we were planning to get married, right after we decided that I would increase my contributions to the church to 10%, we received enough in raises to offset the planned increase in giving. My husband sees this as clear evidence that God does indeed take care of those who choose to tithe. I'm much more sold on tithing than I was, but I'm still a bit uncertain as to how literally true that always is.

If someone strongly believes in tithing or even in just giving something, I think debt is usually a poor excuse not to give. If a person can genuinely say that skipping giving is the only way to keep up with debt payments, maintain a place to live, or be able to afford food, I think it's debatable whether or that person should still give. But, I don't think it's reasonable to skip giving to get out of debt faster or to be able to maintain even the smallest of luxuries.

The reason I say that it's still debatable whether or not giving should still happen even when it seems that it's either that or not be able to meet some basic need is because, on some level, I believe that God that will always take care of people who do what He asks. But, in practice, my belief in that area definitely gets shaky. In my mind, it's part of a much larger theological debate, right up there with whether or not there are situations where lying and killing are justified. (Unless you'd rather debate whether or not tithing is something God actually asks.)

I think it's possible to argue that it's okay to skip giving while paying particularly high interest rates because one would have more money to give over the course of a life time by getting out of debt more quickly. But, I think that's a dangerous line of reasoning because it makes it difficult to say when it makes sense to start giving. It also makes the assumption that God can't use your gifts to get better returns than you can.

Wether or not thing is something God actually asks... That's an interesting question. What do you think?

How about instead of stop giving reduce giving while in debt for the short-term?

[falboe]

I guess I just get frustrated when people like Dave tell others they have to tithe 10% while they can't pay their bills.

[Eagle]

How many people are actually in that boat? Probably not many. But, the advice wouldn't change. Take care of your own household before you start giving to others. Pretty straightforward, but probably easier said than done.

I guess this is true. Particularly when teachers, pastors, and leaders like Dave Ramsey say it is a “scriptural mandate”

Straightforward sure but when people tell others they're going to be punished or they don't love God if they don't tithe... Well, that's the issue IMO.

[disneysteve]

This makes a lot of sense DisneySteve. So how would we approach people who are in the second category (2nd paragraph) who are on government assistence (food stamps, housing assistance, and so forth to survive) and can't pay their bills but don't want to give up their charity donation? What kind of advice is there for them?

Ooh. Great question.

IMO folks receiving public assistance should not be giving to charity - period. They clearly can't afford to support themselves so they've got no business helping to support others with our tax dollars.

Of course, I also don't think they should be buying cigarettes, lottery tickets, beer, cable TV, etc.

[bennkar]

IMO folks receiving public assistance should not be giving to charity - period. They clearly can't afford to support themselves so they've got no business helping to support others with our tax dollars.

Of course, I also don't think they should be buying cigarettes, lottery tickets, beer, cable TV, etc.

Why this isn't currently the law.... I don't know.

[snafu]

what is the breakdown for tithing, what percentage goes to needy recipients and what percentage goes to administration, the church, and church's hierarchy? To much research out there that concludes the Vatican is the biggest slumlord for example.t their 'story'

I wish more people would do something practical like buy into the ideas and philosophy on SavingsAdvice. It's more the feed the man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man how to fish and he'll also be able to feed his family.

[hamchan]

Why this is isn't currently the law.... I don't know.

Probably because it would be impossible to regulate and ridiculously invasive.

[bennkar]

Probably because it would be impossible to regulate and ridiculously invasive.

That hasn't stopped the federal and state governments from putting various laws in place, especially in recent years. Its simply the political will isn't there (and there are various entrenched lobbies that would stop it in any case). It was a simple rhetorical question - I already knew why.

[deedee421]

As a Christian I am of the mind set that if I can't handle the 90% I am given why do I think I'd do any better with 100%.

I always tithed, and I always have. Even when I was a child. My parents don't, so it was completely something I felt led to do.

Would that money be nice in my retirement, yep. But I continue giving because I figure if God wanted me to put that in retirement, he would give me more. And He does.

So far I have found I have always been blessed enough to never have to decide to tithe or pay my electric bill. Thank goodness.

It is a personal opinion, and each person will have to decide for themselves what they believe.

I won't tell anyone if they should or shouldn't tithe, I just know that it works for me. My tithes are the first thing that comes out of my check, and I've been doing it so long I don't even think about it.

I agree completely with the above comments although I haven't tithed my whole life. I was tithing when I decided to get out of debt and I've paid off everything except the mortgage, and I continue to tithe. I'm not a big Dave Ramsey fan, but from what I read he encourages people to tithe and does not berate them if they don't. 2 Corinthians 9:7 (King James Version) says "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver".