Tithing, Giving, Charity while in Debt & Dave Ramsey

[Eagle]

I agree completely with the above comments although I haven't tithed my whole life. I was tithing when I decided to get out of debt and I've paid off everything except the mortgage, and I continue to tithe. I'm not a big Dave Ramsey fan, but from what I read he encourages people to tithe and does not berate them if they don't. 2 Corinthians 9:7 (King James Version) says "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver".

I agree 2 Cor. 9:7 is a good reminder.

However, Dave recommends tithing even while in bankruptcy. That doesn't sit well with me. See section in particular in bold below:

Should I Reduce My Tithe?
QUESTION: Janelle in Sacramento wonders if they should cut their tithe in order to help them get out of debt more quickly. Dave explains his spiritual take and that he wouldn’t stop his tithe or reduce it.

ANSWER: By definition, an evangelical Christian is someone who believes what the Bible says. That’s where we need to go for our answers, not some guy on the radio. However, I can help you with that. I’m not your authority; God’s word would be.

As I’ve studied Scripture, the word “tithe” literally means tenth. Deuteronomy says to give a tenth of your net increase—a tenth of your income. About 1,200 years of Protestant Christian teaching has been that the tithe goes to the local church because the local church is the New Testament representation of the Old Testament storehouse. The Old Testament storehouse took care of the Levites. The church in your community is supposed to be doing that. That’s an evangelical Christian definition of it.

When does it occur? As I’ve studied it in Scripture, it’s real clear that it’s off the top as it says in Proverbs. That’s before anything else occurs. Having said all of that, there’s enough toxicity in Christianity and misinformation, so let’s back up from that. God loves you whether you give money to the church or not. He doesn’t love you more if you give. We’re not going to get into performance-based legalism. We’re just doing this because we love God and that’s what He’s telling His kid to do. I’m going to follow that.

No, I wouldn’t stop my tithe. I wouldn’t reduce it. It’s a tenth. I tithed all the way into bankruptcy court and all the way out. These are a loving Father’s instructions for His kids.

Source: http://www.daveramsey.com/index.cfm?...tItemId=115234

Would any serious financial consultant recommend a Christian to tithe even when they are facing financial trouble, even bankruptcy?

[deedee421]

I agree 2 Cor. 9:7 is a good reminder.

However, Dave recommends tithing even while in bankruptcy. That doesn't sit well with me. See section in particular in bold below:




Would any serious financial consultant recommend a Christian to tithe even when they are facing financial trouble, even bankruptcy?

Would I expect a financial consultant to recommend tithing during bankruptcy? Probably not, but Dave is also a Christian and he answered based upon what he felt led to do when he went through bankruptcy. As I mentioned, I haven't always tithed, but it's what I felt led to do as I grew as a Christian and I tithed as I paid off all my credit card, student loan and car debt. It's a personal decision that I would not force on anyone else.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I know DR has actually suggested BK for only very few people and I think he says they can tithe because the situation is so bad that the only way out is BK, so don't bother paying bills and just start fresh. So you might as well learn to live on 90% instead of 100%.

[disneysteve]

I know DR has actually suggested BK for only very few people and I think he says they can tithe because the situation is so bad that the only way out is BK, so don't bother paying bills and just start fresh. So you might as well learn to live on 90% instead of 100%.

While it's true that cutting the tithe won't keep them out of bankruptcy, I still have an ethical problem with choosing not to pay your bills and to give your money to charity instead. If Chase loaned you money and you have any money available, you should be using it to repay Chase, not giving it to the soup kitchen.

[adpiterp]

I don't think you are off base at all. I think it is a good idea to check out the public info to see how a charity is using your money.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/

At the same time, I think you need to be mindful that of course an organization cannot completely avoid administrative costs and overhead. Also, heading a large organization is a specialized skill which not everyone can do effectively. I have read criticism of the American Red Cross, which spends 90.7% of donations directly on its programs, saying they pay their CEO too much. However, a 600k salary is tiny in comparison to the salary of most Fortune 500 companies. You can't offer a CEO 40k per year and expect to get competent, qualified applicants. The American Red Cross is a huge organization, so I feel the comparison to Fortune 500 companies is apt.

And NEVER give to those "charities" which directly call you. Those are fundraising for-profit companies, which do raise money for legitimate charities, but take their cut first. Instead, give directly to the organizations which you wish to support.

I'm so glad you brought this up - overhead is sometimes a very necessary cost. I just listened to a great Ted Talks that discusses just that: http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pallott..._is_dead_wrong

[Eagle]

Would I expect a financial consultant to recommend tithing during bankruptcy? Probably not, but Dave is also a Christian and he answered based upon what he felt led to do when he went through bankruptcy. As I mentioned, I haven't always tithed, but it's what I felt led to do as I grew as a Christian and I tithed as I paid off all my credit card, student loan and car debt. It's a personal decision that I would not force on anyone else.

I understand that Dave is a Christian. I'm a Christian too FYI. I just don't see even a majority of Christian financial advisors recommending tithing while in bankruptcy. I don't agree with Dave's take on this issue of tithing along with other issues. Specifically as far as the bankruptcy goes... See Disneysteve's post.

While it's true that cutting the tithe won't keep them out of bankruptcy, I still have an ethical problem with choosing not to pay your bills and to give your money to charity instead. If Chase loaned you money and you have any money available, you should be using it to repay Chase, not giving it to the soup kitchen.

How is it ethical, moral, Biblical (take your pick) when you owe a company money (and you're late on payments) to give money away to charity?

[Eagle]

As to the comments made by Dave Ramsey on post 31 of this thread... I wrote a comment on it here...

A few observations:

1 - Dave probably should’ve stuck with a simple answer and not gotten involved with the theological or historical side of the idea of tithing. The "storehouse tithing" doctrine has been taught in some American evangelical churches for around 100 years. It’s not a 1200 year old church teaching as Dave would have you believe. Why? Because Martin Luther hung his 95 thesis around 1517, so that would be 497 years that the Protestant Reformation has been in existence. So Dave is off by over 700 years. Roman Catholic indulgencies to my understanding do go back over 1000 years so maybe he’s thinking of that. Surely that’s not what Dave is referring to though.

2 – I’m not sure which Deuteronomy reference Dave is alluding to here. Perhaps he’s talking about the tithe mentioned in Deut. 14:22-29. The only problem with using this passage or others associated with the tithe in the OT according to Mosaic Law is that the tithe was to be given twice a year and once every third year. This would bring the tithe to 23 and 1/3 percent each year and not the standard 10% taught in many churches. The tithe was a tax to pay for the Temple expenses and the Levites (see Num. 18:21) who were commanded not to work.

3 - There is no passage of Scripture that I know of where the Bible states the NT “local church” represents the “OT Storehouse.” The Church is composed of people or Believers in Jesus Christ. The Church is not a building.

4 – Dave says “The church in your community is supposed to be doing that.” It’s interesting that Dave says this in alluding to caring for those who teach the Gospel. I agree with him there. It also could be a reference to caring for the poor and needy. I wonder how much of your church budget goes towards helping the poor and needy? That would be an interesting question to ask at the next business meeting.

5 - Dave’s Proverbs reference could possibly be Prov. 3:9-10. Perhaps this is the “honor the Lord with your wealth and firstfruits of all your produce.” I agree that we should honor God with our wealth. And Dave does get it right that God doesn’t love us more if we give more. God loves us infinitely more than we can imagine or even fathom. Nothing we do makes God love us more. Nothing we do makes God love us less. That’s not an excuse to sin but it truly freeing to live in the assurance of God’s love.

6 - Would any serious financial consultant recommend a Christian to tithe even when they are facing financial trouble and in particular bankruptcy? The moral, religious, and financial dilemma of this suggestion are intriguing.

7 - It’s not a secret that a large portion of Dave Ramsey's company and personal income for his financial services is derived from Evangelical churches. Probably you’ve seen an advertisement at your church to attend a FPU (Financial Peace University) seminar or watch the DVD’s for a class. How popular would Dave be with Evangelicals if he were to say that Christians could reduce their giving in certain life situations or to entertain the idea that generous giving might not be 10% for some Christians in certain situations?

[Eagle]

I know DR has actually suggested BK for only very few people and I think he says they can tithe because the situation is so bad that the only way out is BK, so don't bother paying bills and just start fresh. So you might as well learn to live on 90% instead of 100%.

So because the situation is bad it's okay for Dave to recommend people pay even less of what they owe? Don't bother paying bills that you agreed to and give away money to charity?

Possible to explain this line of thinking further? Curious.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

I think that if your debt is bad enough for DR to suggest BK then start fresh and start a budget with tithe. I don't agree with him but i can see how sometimes starting fresh is needed.

[murphyc]

It's about grace giving, not "tithing"

As a bible believer with the ability to "rightly divide the word of truth" (II Tim 2:15), I now know that tithing is an Old Testament order for Israel. Those folks had to tithe 30%, not the 10% these churches want you from you these days. The body of Christ is to give generously from the heart AND be able to support your own family. If you can't support your family, you have no business giving your income to a church. If Christians spent more time studying the bible, there would not be this confusion and wrong teaching from the pulpit. But of course, most so-called Christian churches in this country, particularly the megachurches, could not stay in business were it not for demanding church membership rolls, baptisms and Old Testament tithing. Paul also says in II Thess 3:10 "...if any would not work, neither should he eat." Paul's epistles are where you'll find what you need to live a practical life in this world today. I'd advise finding a group of believers who are interested in actually reading and studying the bible and staying away from those who don't get it.

[Eagle]

As a bible believer with the ability to "rightly divide the word of truth" (II Tim 2:15), I now know that tithing is an Old Testament order for Israel. Those folks had to tithe 30%, not the 10% these churches want you from you these days. The body of Christ is to give generously from the heart AND be able to support your own family. If you can't support your family, you have no business giving your income to a church. If Christians spent more time studying the bible, there would not be this confusion and wrong teaching from the pulpit. But of course, most so-called Christian churches in this country, particularly the megachurches, could not stay in business were it not for demanding church membership rolls, baptisms and Old Testament tithing. Paul also says in II Thess 3:10 "...if any would not work, neither should he eat." Paul's epistles are where you'll find what you need to live a practical life in this world today. I'd advise finding a group of believers who are interested in actually reading and studying the bible and staying away from those who don't get it.

Good thoughts and points.

I read recently that less than 25% of Christians give to their local church.

I think it's 23 and 1/3 percent though not 30%.

As I understand it Israelites gave 10% annually to the Levites, an ADDITIONAL 10% annually on feasts for worship, and yet ANOTHER 10% every third year for the Levites, stranger, orphans, and poor. So yes they gave roughly 23 1/3% annually... (See Num 18:20-32 and Deut 14:22-29) So not necessarily a tenth of what people recieved all year... What do you think?

Tithes were required giving. I agree Israel owed the Lord tithes by obligation of His commandments in Mosaic/Levitical law. Yet today I believe as Believers we're called to give cheerfully and that can be above/beyond simply 10% as people are able with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Not out of obligation but out of love as good stewards of what He has entrusted us. Everything we own belongs to God.

[murphyc]

I'm good with Eagle's thorough thinking...

We do owe the Lord all, you are SO right. On an individual basis, I personally will help someone in genuine need, saved or no. I'm just happy to be part of a group (Grace Ambassadors out of Indiana) that goes with what Paul (as he followed Christ) has to say.