Mom passed away, no money in estate

**UnknownXV** · 03-11-2014, 02:56 PM

I can't offer any advice personally I'm afraid, I only wanted to comment to express a question I too had over a situation like this. Is it possible to refuse the elements of a will left to you? It seems to me that is important, since you can be left assets with negative value. A house with a mortgage greater than the value of the home, like in your case. It seems to me you shouldn't even have to deal with it. Just refuse the condo, and I'm guessing the bank will take it back.

I'm no legal expert so it's more of a question.

**QuarterMillionMan** · 03-11-2014, 04:33 PM

Reminds me of an uncle who had passed away a few years ago whose expenses and outstanding debts far outweighed his assets. His sister (my mom) was the executor and was placed with the task of administering and managing his estate, or for lack of a better term, lack of his estate. If I recall correctly my mom wasn't responsible for any of her brother's debts but it sure caused her a lot of stress. Hopefully your mom had some life insurance to help offset some of her debts. If she did have life insurance it could take awhile for the claim to settle and to actually obtain the money. I hope things will work out for you.

**Retired To Win** · 03-11-2014, 06:29 PM

Just because someone names you in their will -- or even makes you executor of the will -- does NOT in any way make you responsible for any of their debts. These are not your debts. Do not even respond to any communications from people trying to collect on them. Once you start talking to them they will play any mindgames they can to make you send them money. And when you do THAT MAY BE CONSTRUED AS ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF RESPONSIBILITY. Do not go there!

**doingitallwrong** · 03-11-2014, 07:46 PM

I'm sorry for your loss.

We went through this last year with my mother-in-law. If your name is not on the account/mortgage/whatever, you are not personally responsible for the debt, the estate is. Funeral costs are allowed to be paid before the estate is distributed, so there may not be any money left for creditors. My M-I-L had a negative bank balance when she died and no investments or life insurance, so we didn't have to worry about any distributions.

This is what I did:

1. Forwarded her mail to our address. (This was far more convenient for dealing with bills etc. that came in, since she didn't live especially close, but we're still getting junk mail in her name 18 months later.)

2. As each bill came in, I wrote "Deceased. No Estate. No Probate." on the part you send in with payment and enclosed a copy (just a photocopy) of the death certificate. (This worked pretty well; I don't think we were ever directly contacted about any of her debt, despite the fact that my husband's name was on the death certificate as next of kin.)

3. Wrote a letter to the bank, informing them of her death and requesting they close the account and return to Social Security the deposits that had come in while we were dealing with things. Enclosed a photocopy of the death certificate. (This worked, sort of; they returned the deposits, but didn't close the account.)

4. Wrote a letter to the mortgage company, informing them of her death and lack of estate. I pointed out our lack of interest in taking on the property and advised they begin foreclosure proceedings immediately. Enclosed copy of death certificate. (This didn't work so well. She just got a letter at the end of last year informing her that the loan had been reassigned. We informed the new company of her death, and haven't heard anything since, yet. I have no idea what the situation is with the house now, though it hasn't shown up as a foreclosure yet.)

5. Printed a page of labels with "Return to Sender. Deceased. No Estate. No Probate." After I sent out the first round of bills, every time a bill came in I stuck a label on the envelope, crossed out the mailing address and bar code, and put it back in the mail. I also ended up printing a page of "Return to Sender. No Such Person at this Address." labels for after the forwarding time expired.

Also, be sure that Social Security acknowledges the death. They're still sending payments to my MIL, despite being informed multiple times of her passing. Every few months I get a surge of motivation and call them, but it always ends up with me holding for 20 minutes and then getting disconnected. (Now that I'm thinking of it, I'll try sending a letter again.)

**Sallyr70** · 03-12-2014, 01:17 PM

Hello!

doingitallwrong- wonderful information and advice, thank you. I have her mail forwarding to my house for several months. I have preprinted inserts to send back with the bills and will enclose a copy of the certificate.

I haven't went to the bank yet, because I'm afraid they will seize the money she has left in her account that I need to pay off some remaining bills. (Her credit card and checking/savings is with the same institution.) Already sent the info to mortgage co and told them I'd be willing to entertain signing the house over to them and waiting for their packet of paperwork. If it is too complicated then I'll pass on that. (This is the same bank as the other stuff, but a different entity)

I'll see if another SS payment is deposited, she usually gets them the 3rd Wed, which is next week. I hope I won't have to deal with them...

Retiredtowin- I will be careful to not engage with creditors at all, only to say this is not my debt and stop calling me IF I happen to answer the phone.

UnknownXV- I'm sure you can and that is exactly what I'm doing with the condo. I don't want to transfer it into my name at all. If I can sign it over to the bank directly, that's fine. Otherwise I'm walking away. The other asset is an old car which I plan to donate to charity.

Thanks so much. I will come back and update in the near future, so hopefully others can learn from this (whether they are planning their own estate or have to handle someone else's.) I'm sure this situation occurs every day in this country but no one I've talked to has dealt with this, and can't find too many stories on the internet.

**Gailete** · 03-12-2014, 03:29 PM

If your Mom was on SS and got Medicare and if she had a supplemental policy such as through AARP her hospital and ambulance bills should be paid in full. If she didn't have a supplemental policy (called Medicare C) then Medicare should pay 80% of the medical bills owing. Anything after that do the deceased label thing on the bills (even though I assume she died at that hospital the business office needs an official notice probably). If your mom had a supplemental Medicare C policy she would have had to write a check or have the payment direct deposited to the insurance every month so that gives you a place to hunt that down, although usually the hospital does the billing to Medicare and the Medicare C all in one swoop and that is ALL that is owed.

So sorry about your mom. I do believe that you can refuse to take on the job of executor, but for sure if you take it, it doesn't mean you have to pay any of her bills yourself so don't worry about that. The last thing you need when grieving is this sort of thing to deal with.

**Sallyr70** · 03-12-2014, 07:18 PM

Gailete,

Thanks for the info. She had Medicare, and Aetna through the Boeing retirement plan. It doesn't say part C on it. The back of the card states the medical program supplements expenses recognized by Medicare. After the level of benefits payable to Medicare is determined this plan will pay 80% of covered medical expenses in excess of the individual calendar year deductible. (One of the ambulance bills came and $85 is owed after insurance). There wasn't any detail as to which insurance paid how much. I don't understand all this medicare stuff, and I guess it doesn't matter in this situation....

I know that her Aetna premium was deducted from her pension payment every month.

**Gailete** · 03-13-2014, 05:43 AM

Sally, just to be clear, Medicare pays 80% of the costs that they figure something should have been, and the Aetna policy should be paying the other 20%. The hospitals, doctors, etc. can't charge her any more that the amount that Medicare determined is what is owed. So unless your mom didn't get her deductible paid (if she had one) on the Aetna policy for this year, which seems entirely possible since she died here at the beginning of the year. That might be the most she might be charged. I think those deductibles run up to about $350 tops.

For each bill that was paid, you for your mom, will receive an explanation of benefits (EOB) within a month or two showing what Medicare covered and what the supplement policy should pay or if you don't have a supplement what you owe. You also get a explanation of benefits from Aetna showing what they paid as well. Other than co-pays on my medications which go through Medicare D, I haven't paid a single penny for doctor visits, ER visits, surgery, my arthritis IV that I get every 6 weeks in the 7 years I have had Medicare. (Before everyone thinks that I get that for free, please remember a Medicare payment is taken out of each SS check each month and I pay over $160+ each month for the supplement. Plus of course the prescription plan as well. All told well over $300 a month on a very limited income.) So other than a small deductible your mom should only be billed for that deductible, otherwise, just wait for the two papers in the mail that explain who much is being covered. Just because a bill is $1000 doesn't mean that Medicare will pay $800. They may state that the only thing owed is $225 so they will pay $180 and the supplement kicks in $45. No matter how big the original bill was, that is all that has to be paid. Don't think you have to pay anything else. Wait for those bills to come in, match them up by dates and procedures and you will eventually see the big picture. A bit hard to understand unless you are in the program and are used to seeing these things.

If the ambulance had both Medicare and Aetna paying on the bill, that $85 shouldn't be owed either. Medicare is a federal program and so the rules are the same countrywide.

**Sallyr70** · 03-13-2014, 06:32 AM

Oh, that's interesting.... I did look at an EOB that aetna sent for when she was in the hospital the first time (starting Jan 30). She has a $200 calendar year deductible. So the $85 for ambulance was applied toward the $200. All the amounts due for various doctors and tests came up to around $260.... you are saying that she is only responsible for the $200 for deductible?

Thank you

**Gailete** · 03-13-2014, 07:26 AM

you are saying that she is only responsible for the $200 for deductible?

Should be, as that is how it works. If you have it, you might want to fork out for the $200 deductible that might not have been paid yet, not that you officially owe it, but it might save lots of correspondence and bills asking for payment. Then you know it was paid and nothing else should be owing. I don't know how the bills would work if the deductible wasn't paid. If the ambulance bill with the $85 is all you have seen so far, she might have paid the other $115 sometime during January so that you might not have known about it. Just one or two doctor appointments would have been enough to get up to the deductible. And even with those, the deductible is still only on the part that Medicare says is payable so a doctor with a $160 bill that Medicare says they will pay $75, the doctor can't charge your mom the other $85. The deductible is for the first $200 that MC says they would pay but only after the deductible has been paid first. It can seem confusing but always remember that the only amount owing is what MC says is the bill, no one else. Even Aetna can't tell you a different amount. If you can see proof of the $200 deductible having been paid other than possibly that $85, that is all that should have come out of your moms 'estate' so to speak.

So I hope that relieves your mind about the medical bills. If you have problems you might want to find out who the Senior Ombudsman is in the area where your mom lived as they can possibly help you find out any info you need to know about SS and Medicare, etc. I'm not exactly sure of their job but It is basically to be a voice for the elderly so I'm sure they would know where to refer you if you have questions on some of the things you are going through currently.

You know it used to be that people got to have time to mourn and grieve for their loved ones. Our society no longer allows that. Since people don't go into mourning with wearing black clothing for a period of time, etc., it doesn't take much to forget that someone has just suffered a loss, or they figure you should be okay just 1-2 weeks after the fact. But you do have to go through the grieving process, so take your time with all the estate business if at all possible. Don't be too hard on yourself. Take care. Holler if you have more questions, glad to help.

**Sallyr70** · 03-18-2014, 11:32 AM

I figured out how Mom's insurance worked: Medicare pays 80% of the allowed charges, then Aetna would pay 80% of the remainder. However...

It's a moot point. This morning, I checked her bank accounts and the bank was holding thousands of dollars (showing negative balances.) I went in and turns out, Social Security notified the bank of the death. Because there is the big VISA bill from the same bank, they are holding all the money that's left. (Basically what I was afraid would happen if I reported the death... they found out anyway). I closed the accounts and no further payments can be made to anyone. It sucks, but in a way this makes it easier for me. I don't have to decide who gets paid and who does not.

**KTP** · 03-19-2014, 05:07 AM

I don't think you are responsible for anything, unless you had her gift you some large amounts of money in the previous couple of years (then you could be in for some pain). I wouldn't pay a dime to a lawyer or a creditor.

**Sallyr70** · 04-15-2014, 11:35 AM

Hello, I thought I would post an update. It has been 6 weeks since Mom passed away.

Regarding her condo: I called the mortgage dept of the credit union, explained the situation. They sent an application to be completed. I selected 'deed in lieu of foreclosure' (the other choice was short sale). Sent it in with the copy of death certificate and proof that I had filed the will with the court.

Yesterday I received 6 letters. There were 3 letters, 2 copies of each. All three were from different departments and said different thngs. The first one was a general delinquency notice and said I could schedule a meeting (as if they never received my application or phone call.) The second one said, Thank you for contacting us about modifying your mortgage. Fill out this form and send back. (It was a simple one page form, not the application I completed.) The third one said, We have received your application for loan mod and it's incomplete. You must send all of the following: real estate broker license, MLS listing, clear title, court letter naming me as administrator, etc....

I don't understand why I got so many diffferent responses. It's laughable. I plan to drop it and ignore any future mailings. The place will go into foreclosure eventually. Since I'm not doing probate and not listing for sale, there's no point in doing anything further. I have a feeling that if I tried to work with them, it would be more of the same confusion.

Otherwise, things are going okay. I've been sending copy of the DC to any companies that send bills, her condo has been cleaned out and utilities shut off.

Now I'm letting myself grieve, going through all the pictures and mementos, and taking care of myself.

**snafu** · 04-15-2014, 04:33 PM

Sally, thank you for posting an update. We are thinking of you and hope going through pictures and mementoes help fill you with wonderful memories of love and good times to counter the loss. Take good care of yourself.

Mom passed away, no money in estate