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Tough Bind: Father Asking for Money

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  • Tough Bind: Father Asking for Money

    Hello, Savers. I have only posted a few times in the community and mostly reply to posts rather than write them, but I desperately need some advice. I'm in a bad position because my father just asked me for $9,000 via email about 20 minutes ago, and while I've never lend money to people (because I don't want to be a bank!), I feel in some ways obligated (because obviously I would be here without him).

    My father is 61. My father's financial situation has always been terribly rocky, so that's my primary reason I don't want to lend to him. His career field involves salaries around $250k, but he still manages to always live from paycheck to paycheck. He has borrowed from friends and family members before and in some cases has not paid them back. He filed for bankruptcy a number of years ago after a shopping habit and a job loss put him far in the red. His credit has never recovered, yet he still lives a high lifestyle (bought a brand new Audi two years ago, nice house, nice clothes). The tides have turned on him again because he divorced my step-mother about 8 months ago and she was awarded half of his saving and his retirement, then he lost his job 4 months ago and has told me on the phone recently that he's completely out of savings, but he was just offered a job last week that requires moving.

    My father being the man he is has already put $1,000 earnest money on a brand new, $250k house that his girlfriend "has her heart set on." He listed his house at $179,000 a week ago (owes $139,000 on the mortgage) and he already has an offer at the listing price, but the buyer just revealed he cannot buy the house until he sells his house (which was also just listed on the market). My father asked for money upfront from his new job to cover moving costs, living expenses and the down payment on the house. When he told me about the offer on the phone this weekend, he said he may have to turn down the job if they down offer enough money for the house! He said it's either turn down the job or take the job and starve until his house sells. My gut reaction was, "Well, I wouldn't let you starve, Dad," and then he said, "Well that's nice of you to offer, but I don't think it will come to that in any case." I didn't think I had "offered" anything, but I worried about that all weekend after we got off the phone, and now his email says the job offered him $10k upfront for moving and living expenses (which must be repaid within 90 days), but he said he needs $9k more to secure the 3.5% down payment for this house and that's why he's asking me.

    Here's my situation: I'm 27 and my husband is 32. My husband and I have been married a little over a year. We are early in our careers and have a combined income of $140k/year, but we have more than that currently in investments and savings, and my husband also has an inheritance in a trust (we're not touching it and we've invested it as an additional retirement). It's likely my father is aware of the trust and that's why he's asking, but we also have good jobs and we live within our means, so he knows we have the money. I could afford to give the father the money from my own savings, but I wouldn't make this decision without my husband. My husband gets along with my father, but he's said before that he would never want to lend my father money. He knows everything about my father's current situation except that he has asked me for the money now. I plan to discuss it with him shortly, but I'm almost positive he will not want to lend the money. I don't want this situation to upset my marriage, but I don't want my father to judge my husband for not wanting to lending the money either.

    I'm angry with my father for asking, especially because this isn't about him starving; it's about him not getting the house and the earnest money back. He could take the job and live in an apartment for a couple months and then buy a house when his house sells, but he's instead asking his youngest daughter for money. I'm angry that my father would gamble such odds just to maintain a lifestyle I find reckless, and that he would sacrifice his good standing in the eyes of my husband and put me in stress over a stupid house for his girlfriend. I feel stupid for falling into this trap, but even then I still want to help him.

    Our answer will most likely be no, but my father will likely argue that when does sell his house, he will have enough money to pay us and the new job back and then some. He counter that he will pay us interest for the loan, but I'm not a gambler. I don't like this game, but I love my father. Anyone out there have any advice, or at least words of encouragement?

  • #2
    Originally posted by papa_squat View Post
    I'm angry with my father for asking, especially because this isn't about him starving; it's about him not getting the house and the earnest money back. He could take the job and live in an apartment for a couple months and then buy a house when his house sells, but he's instead asking his youngest daughter for money. I'm angry that my father would gamble such odds just to maintain a lifestyle I find reckless, and that he would sacrifice his good standing in the eyes of my husband and put me in stress over a stupid house for his girlfriend. I feel stupid for falling into this trap, but even then I still want to help him.
    Sounds like you already answered your own question. Personally if I was in your position and could afford to lend it, I wouldn't either. Add to the fact this isn't about him starving but just wanting to maintain his previous lifestyle with a house.
    "I'd buy that for a dollar!"

    Comment


    • #3
      It isn't your job to support his bad behavior. If he were using drugs, would you lend him money to buy cocaine? I don't see this as being all that different. He has a spending problem. Giving him money is just enabling him to keep on propagating that problem. Tell him that you love him and because you love him, you aren't going to become a participant in his unaffordable lifestyle. From all you've posted, he is a financial train wreck. Don't let him drag you into that wreck too.
      Steve

      * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
      * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
      * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

      Comment


      • #4
        Sounds like you realize that (anyone) giving him money will not solve the core issue, which is that he does not know how to manage money. Maybe being bailed out over and over again has given him a false sense that there will always be a safety net to fall back upon. Loaning him money would be similar to giving an alcoholic a drink IMHO.

        Has he admitted that he has a problem? If so, that might be a good segue to suggesting some sort of support group, or at least a financial planner who has the luxury of not being family.

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't know. i agree with the reasoning behind the responses so far in that you shouldn't enable his behaviour, but family is family afterall. I wouldn't align this request with blowing money on drugs since it is going towards a house, not a habit.

          If I was in your position, and I had the additional funds available I would give/lend the amount (assuming $9k does not quantify a significant dent in savings) to my father. I would then use that amount as a flag. If he pays me back, great. If he doesn't pay me back, that flag would be my reason to never lend to him again in the future.

          This is just personal opinion, mind you. I realize it's not necessarily the right thing to do, but for me $9k is a small enough amount that if I lost it to family I would be okay with it in order to keep the peace. I would do this for any of my immediate family members.

          Comment


          • #6
            My brother and I have been in this position for years with my own father. Speaking from experience, I can tell you that lending money will only mean that you'll be asked for money again in the future.

            If it really were a matter of no food on the table, I'd be all about supporting your father. But like everyone, including yourself, has said, it's more about maintaining his lifestyle. Personally, I'd suggest a frank, but polite discussion to let him know up front that if he really needed help to survive, it would be one thing, but just to get a downpayment, you're not comfortable. You can easily say that there's no guarantee that with this market his buyer will ever sell their house. If they can't sell, they might back out, and then where would you be? For that matter, where would he be since he'd still have to pay back his work. It sounds like he could use some support and encouragement when it comes to sticking with the new job and getting gainfully employed, but at the same time, a firm no on supporting his bad financial behavior. It would be a real shame if he said no to the job just because he couldn't buy a snazzy new home. I hope everything works out for all of you!

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks everyone so far for your thoughts. I knew the answer before I even finished posting , but I think many of you understand how the head and the heart can conflict in their opinions.

              I talked to my husband and he had already anticipated the situation. We agreed that this was not only a bad financial situation for us, but for him as well. I already know my father's lost half of his retirement to his ex, so taking on a larger mortgage when he should be saving for retirement is just wrong, wrong, wrong....

              I'm drafting a reply to him and trying not to lecture, but he needs to know that we have his best interest in mind.

              I guess the real conflict is that I just don't know how to help my dad. Giving him money would have solved his immediate problem about the house, but it would likely give him permission to borrow from us in the future. I'm already worried that it really will come down to his health and well-being at stake someday; if he' still pulling this sort of crap in his 60s, I have no assurance that he will be financially able to take care of himself even 10 years from now. It would insult my father to send him personal finance books, but I don't know what to do to keep him out of the poor house!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seen View Post
                I don't know. i agree with the reasoning behind the responses so far in that you shouldn't enable his behaviour, but family is family afterall. I wouldn't align this request with blowing money on drugs since it is going towards a house, not a habit.
                Certainly there is no absolute right or wrong answer here. You need to do what feels right to you and your husband.

                As for comparing it to drugs, you say this is going toward a house, not a habit. The habit is a spending addiction, consistently living beyond his means. This guy can't afford what he is spending his money on. He has a pattern of borrowing from friends and family and not necessarily repaying them. This isn't a one time request from somebody down on his luck.

                If I was in your position, and I had the additional funds available I would give/lend the amount (assuming $9k does not quantify a significant dent in savings) to my father. I would then use that amount as a flag. If he pays me back, great. If he doesn't pay me back, that flag would be my reason to never lend to him again in the future.
                I think this could be a reasonable way to go if the two of you can comfortably spare this 9K even if you never get it back. Just be fully aware that this money could permanently damage your relationship. Of course, saying no could also damage your relationship.
                Steve

                * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
                * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
                * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's not really your decision alone. It is one for you and your husband. You can just tell your father that you and your husband have decided together that lending him that much money at this time is not possible due to reasons A, B, and C.

                  No easy answer, but that is one possible route to take.
                  Brian

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by disneysteve View Post
                    As for comparing it to drugs, you say this is going toward a house, not a habit. The habit is a spending addiction, consistently living beyond his means.
                    Sorry that was bad wording on my part. What I meant by that comment was that a house has inherent value. In other words, it's not money being thrown away.

                    Although, I guess it would be the same thing if he declared bankruptcy again in the future or something of the like.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seen View Post
                      Sorry that was bad wording on my part. What I meant by that comment was that a house has inherent value. In other words, it's not money being thrown away.

                      Although, I guess it would be the same thing if he declared bankruptcy again in the future or something of the like.
                      Whether it is a house or a drug is irrelevent. The fact that the house has inherent value is irrelevent. What is relevent is the reason he is borrowing the money. He is not financially ready to buy a house immediately, he is asking his daughter to fund his excessive lifestyle by forwarding him money he should save first, then buy his house when he can afford it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I emailed my dad and let him know that we decided it would not be financially smart for us to lend him them money. We don't know the situation of the buyer interested in his home to know how serious it is and said that this was a risk we would not take if we were in this same situation. I told him we genuinely wanted to help him and would do all we could if his actual health or well-being were on the line, but that he didn't need the house to get and keep the job and that renting for bit wouldn't be the end of the world. I also said that I didn't think it would be wise for him to take our an even larger mortgage when he should be focusing on funding his retirement, but I ended my lecture there and ended it with our love and best wishes.

                        He replied and said he was sorry and embarrassed to even ask, but that he wanted to please his girlfriend and didn't want to upset his cats with moves between apartments and deal with storage centers. He also mentioned that the earnest money was refundable (is that normal?), so I didn't need to worry about any loss to him because of that.

                        I think things turned out as well as they could have on my end, but I still feel like this will hang around us in an awkward air for a while. My husband also wants me to have a talk with my father after he's back on his feet to find out his plans for retirement. DH understands my desire to ensure my father's health and well-being, but we agree that we don't want to be anyone's retirement account if we can help it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by maat55 View Post
                          Whether it is a house or a drug is irrelevent. The fact that the house has inherent value is irrelevent.
                          It's irrelevant to You. To Me, it's relevant.

                          Good to hear things worked out for you, OP.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by papa_squat View Post
                            I still feel like this will hang around us in an awkward air for a while.
                            I guarantee it would have been far more awkward had you lent him the money.

                            Sounds like it turned out as well as it could.
                            Steve

                            * Despite the high cost of living, it remains very popular.
                            * Why should I pay for my daughter's education when she already knows everything?
                            * There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by disneysteve View Post
                              I guarantee it would have been far more awkward had you lent him the money.
                              That's exactly what I thought!

                              Thanks disneysteve and everyone who offered your advice. I will probably still need to have a talk with my father about his retirement plans someday, so I'll let you know when it comes to that so I can get some pointers .

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