Socialized versus Capitalism healthcare and social ideas?

[Mjenn]

I promised myself that I would not engage in this thread anymore, but yet here I am.

I get the whole 'small government' argument. I really do. I don't agree, but I get it. But lets not base it on falsehoods.

I highly recommend, Maat, that you take a few trips, to a few other countries in the world. I'm not saying it should/will change your mind. But it might give your arguments a little better standing.

I've lived in 3 countries with national healthcare - so I have to respond to what you have written here:

would agree that emotions and government entitlements and expectations are preventing market forces from working. Yet, socialized healthcare systems create just downsize product in order to discourage participation. What is unfair, is that busy people in a socialist system will get less provision than they with time on their hands. Many people will not want to take off a whole day to wait at an clinic, yet they without jobs, have more time on their hands.

National Health Care - does not equal Communist Russia. Over the last 10 years I have never sat around waiting in a doctor's office for longer than 30 minutes. Except for the emergency room visit I mentioned earlier.

I will only speak for Scandinavia now, since systems change swiftly, but here 'social' health care works pretty much like American.

I feel sick. I call the doctor's office. Usually I leave a message and they call me back within 15 minutes - anytime during opening hours, which are 8am - 7pm. They make an appointment for me. Usually the same day. I go to the appointment. The doctor diagnoses me or refers me to a specialist.

The only time I have ever had to wait in the office was when I went to drop-in hours. Then I waited 20 minutes.

I can also book a time at my doctor via the internet.

I can choose which Doctor I want to see. I can choose my local state run clinic. Or I can choose any state-run clinic. I can also choose any private doctor. The private doctor is still paid by the state. The private doctor can choose to have a higher co-pay. But most don't - because they want to compete with state providers.

I choose one main provider - if I see that provider I have a 10 dollar co-pay. I can also see any other provider at any time but then I have to pay a 20 dollar co-pay. If my medical bills, including medicine and co-pays total more than 150 dollars, then all other medicine and doctor's visits are free.

Now it is true there are waits in the system where I live. The system is not perfect and it needs work. Certainly. There are waits are for non-emergency surgery that is not elective. In my personal experience I know two people who needed eye surgery and one person that needed surgery for carpal tunnel that had to wait for their surgery.
In our region, if you have to wait more than 3 months for non-emergency surgery, you have a right to go anywhere else that will conduct the surgery and have it paid for. This means you can go to other European countries, or to other regions of this country. My region will foot the bill. This means most non-emergency surgery is carried out in 3 months.

The three month rule does not apply to elective surgery that is paid for by National Health Care like IVF and gastric bypass.

During this time, yes, your employer might suffer. Your sick leave is paid for by the state - but obviously you cannot do your job.

Again, not a perfect system. Which is why I think if you have a combination of the US & European system you would really have a model to be envied.

But the Scand. philosophy is this: You should not be entitled to better health care just because you are wealthy. Everyone has the right to be treated with the best medical care possible irregardless of their means.

[shanecurran]

I am all for socialized health care. I think most people in the states like to say our system is better than abroad. One way to reduce the number of people getting unnecessary check ups is to have a small copay.

[maat55]

I am all for socialized health care. I think most people in the states like to say our system is better than abroad. One way to reduce the number of people getting unnecessary check ups is to have a small copay.

Small copays encourage over use and promote insurance company profits.

The free market solution is to have the least insurance possible and pay for small emergencies and doctor visits out of pocket. If people were to save the additionals funds saved by not over insuring, they would have plenty of funds for small bills and save large sums for their later years. When people pay out of pocket, they will be more frugal in their healthcare choices.

[snafu]

maat55, I conclude you have not yet suffered a life threatening illness. Statistically it is likely you will have to cope with the system that requires clearance from an insurance clerk before the medical expert can proceed with care. When you are seriously ill, perhaps recovering from serious surgery, you will learn your carrier has declined to pay for your procedure. You will not enjoy having to make innumerable calls, e-mails, trying to sort out details 1st to determine the glitch, 2nd to get corrections made which is ever more difficult since you never ever are able to talk to the same person twice. Just when you think it's sorted...it all goes wrong again.

The problem I disliked the most was being told a loved one has used up his $6 million medical plan and there is nothing further to be done. We could never confirm there was no more treatment due to severity of illness or lack of $$$$$$$$.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

Maat, I never said to protect healthcare. I said my right to believe that healthcare is a right. You wrote you can't get that. Well I believe it and I have a right to think that way. I did not say you had to, nor did I say that you had be on board. Just that I am entitled in the US to my own opinion.

I see your argument as valid. I don't think it could work because people don't save for retirement now, what makes you think they would save for their health? I am about to post a link to a blog about people in foreclosure. They knowingly stopped paying in October and were evicted in April. So they did it willingly and stayed there so they could be "smart" with their money.

So what happens to people working that system? Don't bother saving for medical care, then go BK (easy when you are middle class/working poor), and then who takes care of them in a pay your own system?

Do we let them die? If medical care is based on who can pay, what if people choose not to save because they figure "I can't afford it anyway...let me die." And trust me I BET A LOT of people will act this way.