Minimum wage, good or bad?

[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Politics is alot more than economics though don't you think?

Sure, but you’re the one that posted:

“I don't share Republican/Conservative ideologies”

Which didn’t specify any particular segment of the ideology. I merely went by your prior postings.

So in answer to your question, I support freedom, an aim that no political party at present targets.

That’s a Straw Man argument.

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[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

It's probably worth pointing out how many workers are employed by the government. The total number of public sector jobs in Britain rose by 95,000 in the year to June, to stand at 5.85 million. This means the state now employs nearly one in four workers.

When faced with these figures its hardly surprising that the minimum wage and unemployment figures continue to improve. Whether they represent value for money however is another matter entirely.

I was referencing the American national economy, where BTW, the number of federal government workers declined during the ‘90s, which undercuts your theory.

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[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

With the whole 6k lb. thing - true. But it's a deduction, not a credit. People get those mixed up I think.

I’m aware it’s a deduction, but in those tax brackets, that’s still a whole lot of money.

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[dealsaver]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Read Ayn Rand. The minimum wage is evil!

[cercis]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

So what does Ayn say? Why is it evil. Break it down for those of too busy working 3 jobs (how uniquely american) to read a book. Or, in my case, for those of us who prefer entertainment reading to be fiction, having gotten more than enough heavy reading at work.

[jmjj215]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Atlas Shrugged?

[dealsaver]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

So what does Ayn say? Why is it evil. Break it down for those of too busy working 3 jobs (how uniquely american) to read a book. Or, in my case, for those of us who prefer entertainment reading to be fiction, having gotten more than enough heavy reading at work.

Ayn Rand's philosophy is against most government intervention. I'm sure she would find the minimum wage particularly appalling. The minimum wage impinges on two parties ability to collectively value the work done by one party for the other. As a result, market distortions occur because of some work being valued at a rate higher than it deserves. If someone is willing to work for less than the minimum wage, who has the right to tell them no. In the US of course, we benefit from illegal workers who don't abide by the minimum wage. Paying workers more than they are worth is a form of takings from the employer. Those resources that are used to overcompensate certain minimum wage workers could be used more effeciently to benefit the owners of the corporation. In that way society benefits.

[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Ayn Rand's philosophy is against most government intervention.

Unless it suits and/or benefits those people.

I'm sure she would find the minimum wage particularly appalling.

Obviously.

The minimum wage impinges on two parties ability to collectively value the work done by one party for the other.

That assumes each of the "parties" has equal power.

As a result, market distortions occur because of some work being valued at a rate higher than it deserves.

More like some people think they get to determine that other people are 'overpaid'.

If someone is willing to work for less than the minimum wage, who has the right to tell them no.

And if a child wants to work 12 hours a day, who has the right to tell them no, eh ?

Paying workers more than they are worth is a form of takings from the employer.

And paying executives more than they are worth is a “form of takings” from who ?

Those resources that are used to overcompensate certain minimum wage workers could be used more effeciently to benefit the owners of the corporation.

Those resources that are used to overcompensate certain corporate executives could be used more effeciently to fairly benefit the workers. In that way society benefits.

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[jmjj215]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

It's a fruitless argument from both sides. Execs "feel" they're fairly compensated. Others "feel" they aren't. Who can really decide what a person's labor is worth?

[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Corporate management is currently paid 300 HUNDRED TIMES what the typical employee earns. American CEOs are currently paid 20 TIMES what CEOs of their competition in Europe and Japan are paid.

The wages of the vast overwhelming number of American workers went BACKWARDS during each of the last five calendar year.

As someone famously said, you do the math.

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[PrincessPerky]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

And if a child wants to work 12 hours a day, who has the right to tell them no, eh ?#

How do you define child? I was a 'child' perfectly willing to work, but first I had to be locked up for school, no school, no permit. Yeah permit, I had to get permisssion from the government to work, and had lots of sily restrictions once I got that permit. Sorry at 14 I had every right to go earn money, and having practice at a work ethic did me good. To many 'children' are left to wait out the magic age of 18 before they can seek gainful employment and then whoah everyone is supporised that they often fail.

[VJW]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

How do you define child?

Children. Little kids. We have laws prohibiting children from working at regular jobs (and I don’t mean baby-sitters, paperboys, and cutting grass).

The RightWing wants to eliminate the 8-hour work day, the 40-hour work week, overtime, and the Federal Minimum Wage, so I always ask if they want to complete the set and roll back the Child Labor laws while they’re at it.

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[Dingoluv4eva]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Less than a hundred years ago.. in this country.. 5 year olds and 7 year olds, were working in shoe factores, and butcher shops etc for pretty much nothing.

If they talk about abolitioning something that happened 30 years ago.. ABORTION..

than they also talk about changing and revamping and pretty much throwing out something that happened 70 years ago.. SOCIAL SECURITY ACT.

than why not make child labor legal again, something that happened 100 years ago.

[cercis]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Child labor is the North's dirty little secret. We know the South's major sin (and believe me, I am not trying to make light of it at all. It is a major sin). What we're never told is the North's major sin.

In the north, while slavery ruled the day in the south, children were put into sweat shops. Whole families were paid little enough that they often starved while every person there worked. In many ways they were worse off than most slaves. Most slaves at least had 3 meals/day and a place to sleep. Children in the North often had no place to sleep, or slept on the streets. They were beaten for lack of performance.

They didn't have a choice but to work for their employers because they owed the company store for what little they had. They were enslaved, in every sense of the word.

I've seen our country sinking back to those days ever so slightly. We're afraid to leave our jobs because if we do, we won't have medical insurance. Without medical insurance, we can't afford most medical care. But getting medical insurance on your own can be a very expensive proposition ($500 for a woman and 2 kids without maternity care) and may or may not cover most procedures.

We see employers who do little things to make sure that we are indebted to them, even while they do their best to make sure they maximize their profit out of us. If that means making us work 12-16 hour days in order to keep our jobs, but only being paid for 8 hours of work, well so be it, according to them. I've lots of friends who work in IT. They've watched the IT departments get gutted, from 15 people to 3. The work load didn't go down, it just got spread out among the 3 left. If they couldn't do it, they were fired. And there are few IT jobs right now. Generally, the turnover is fairly high because no human can do the work of 5 people, so they fire and hire and fire and hire. You and I know that's a stupid business model, just hire the people you need and you'll spend less training them, but that's a different line on the budget, so they excuse it.

Without minimum wage, I have no doubt that most places would pay $2/hour and think they were doing their workers a favor.

[jmjj215]

Re: Minimum wage, good or bad?

Corporate management is currently paid 300 HUNDRED TIMES what the typical employee earns. American CEOs are currently paid 20 TIMES what CEOs of their competition in Europe and Japan are paid.

The wages of the vast overwhelming number of American workers went BACKWARDS during each of the last five calendar year.

As someone famously said, you do the math.

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Execs could also argue that their services are worth 300 TIMES that. There are generalizations, and their are exceptions. My point is only that both sides can justify their wages. Again, you would have to look at it on a case by case basis.

If a person's services are extremely valuable, what else can you do to keep them except compensate them more? How do you keep other companies from poaching? You have to compensate.