Self-defense

[maat55]

We have a seventy-five pound brindle boxer who will bark at strange noises, but will lick the intruder, once they're in.

[disneysteve]

Steve, I agree with almost everything you post, but I guess on this subject we're going to have to disagree. I totally agree with zakity and maat55's last posts. With your examples, in the end it comes down to responsibility. The cops didn't make sure the weapon was unloaded and didn't treat it as if it was loaded. The family that their kids got a hold of the weapons didn't take the steps necessary to make sure that didn't happen.

Actually, I don't think we disagree all that much. Again, I'm not opposed to gun ownership and I'm not opposed to using that gun to defend yourself and your family. I just worry because there is no way to pick and choose who gets to have one and no way to ensure that once someone has one, they treat it properly, store it properly, train their kids properly, etc. Far too many accidental shootings occur with personal weapons. That makes it pretty clear to me that a great many gun owners aren't doing what they should be doing. Does that mean nobody should be allowed to own a gun? Of course not. But maybe there needs to be a tighter system in place with better background checks, mandatory training and retraining annually, or something along those lines. I certainly don't have the answer. And I understand that if you outlaw gun ownership, only the criminals will have guns.

It is a difficult issue and a personal one. I don't own a gun and don't plan to. It just isn't something I'm comfortable with. But I totally understand why others feel differently and just hope that all who do own guns handle them with the proper care and respect they require.

I also agree with zakity and maat55's posts.

[m3racer]

But maybe there needs to be a tighter system in place with better background checks, mandatory training and retraining annually, or something along those lines.

I'm surprised this isn't already in place.

[maat55]

Actually, I don't think we disagree all that much. Again, I'm not opposed to gun ownership and I'm not opposed to using that gun to defend yourself and your family. I just worry because there is no way to pick and choose who gets to have one and no way to ensure that once someone has one, they treat it properly, store it properly, train their kids properly, etc. Far too many accidental shootings occur with personal weapons. That makes it pretty clear to me that a great many gun owners aren't doing what they should be doing. Does that mean nobody should be allowed to own a gun? Of course not. But maybe there needs to be a tighter system in place with better background checks, mandatory training and retraining annually, or something along those lines. I certainly don't have the answer. And I understand that if you outlaw gun ownership, only the criminals will have guns.

It is a difficult issue and a personal one. I don't own a gun and don't plan to. It just isn't something I'm comfortable with. But I totally understand why others feel differently and just hope that all who do own guns handle them with the proper care and respect they require.

I also agree with zakity and maat55's posts.

The world cannot be perfect, the best you can do is restrict people who have committed a violent crime, from owning them. Guns are only tools, they make small people able to defend themselves, from big people. Like money, they have good uses and bad uses, but you don't get rid of either.

I understand, you are not advocating the removal of guns from innocent people. I just think that across the board, it's safer for society to have them, than not. There are by far, many more good people than bad, and armed, they make society safer.

One thing I'm certain of is that bad people will always find a way to have guns. If the gov. tells society that they can no longer have guns, I will break every law I can to keep mine, because when it comes to survival, I am not going to rely on the government save me. Just like saving for retirement. I guess I've rambled enough.

[LivingAlmostLarge]

We had a 100+ lb dobie that would like anyone who was in the house and LOVED to sit on people's lap. Thought she was a lap dog. But put someone outside the door and she'd be growling and ready to attack. Once when another dog lunged at me, she grabbed it and threw the thing (probably like 20-30 lb dog) up in the air. By the way my Dobie was leashed the other dog came charging.

So sure some dogs are good in the house, but they can bite. Any dog with teeth can bite, including my bichon frise (the younger has bitten someone).

As for guns, any gun can kill. It just depends on who owns it and how the use it.

I have to say maat, if you are for guns, why aren't you for credit cards? It's not the credit cards that create debt, it's people. And CC are just tools. Some people can obviously responsibly manage them, but others cannot.

So if you believe in yourself then shouldn't credit cards not be to blame but the person's themselves?

[zakity]

The world cannot be perfect, the best you can do is restrict people who have committed a violent crime, from owning them. Guns are only tools, they make small people able to defend themselves, from big people. Like money, they have good uses and bad uses, but you don't get rid of either.

I need to edit this. I should say:

The world cannot be perfect, the best you can do is restrict people who have committed a violent crime, from legally owning them. Guns are only tools, they make small people able to defend themselves, from big people. Like money, they have good uses and bad uses, but you don't get rid of either.

The bad guys are always going to have guns. No matter how much we make it difficult for them, they will find a way.

[Scanner]

You know, thanks for bringing this subject up.

I am thinking of getting a shotgun not for self-defense per se in the usual sense of what everyone fears here. . .but rather if there becomes a chance of civil unrest due to a Hurricane, nuclear attack, energy prices/food shortages, etc. Then I feel a gun is a necessity.

I generally agree with DisneySteve. . .in the chance of an armed burglarly. . .reaching the gun may not happen in time and the advantage IMO is only slight (the intruder has the element of surprise and probably initiative on his side), if there is any advantage at all.

Besides, without my contacts at night, I am as blind as a bat.

However, when there is civil unrest in which the social order we have in America can degrade within a matter of 2 days IMO. . .you could have roving thugs and gangs in your streets out to take what is yours or hurt your family.

So. . .I just plan to keep the shotgun and shells in a locked armory.

I have read that a shotgun is the recommended ultimate defensive weapon - it doesn't penetrate walls as easy as a highpowered rifle or handgun (and injure someone accidently), can blast in a wide dispersal pattern for DW, and the sound of it cocking is usually enough to get surrender.

Anyway, I have never bought a firearm. . .what's the best way to go about it? Do I buy it and then sign up for a gun safety course or vice-versa?

[Scanner]

Just stumbled across this related link:

Energy fears looming, new survivalists prepare (AP) : Yahoo! Green

I am not quite that bad. . .I think those solutions are shortsighted as human beings live and die by the fact we are social animals and depend on socialization, not being hermits, to survive.

I mean, I'm typing this working CAT scan at our local hospital. . .what happens when they fall and break a leg? Will these survivalists have the nerve to show up and ask for help?

That being said, short term. . .I agree that "looting" can happen until the gov't is able to restore order.

[Broken Arrow]

Hmm, this is the part where things start to get a bit controversial because, with the gun crowd anyway, there's always at least one shotgun fan who can not be swayed no matter what you say.

But let me emphasize again that I think Mindset, Awareness, Preparation, and Training are more important than what choice of firearms you end up with. So, which to pick, in my personal opinion, is mostly hair-splitting....

That said, here's why people like shotguns:

* They are versatile. If you're out in the country, and you can have only one firearm, you can't go wrong with a shotgun. Not only are they suited for self-defense, but they are also suitable for hunting game.

* They are novice-friendly. I've debated that this is not quite the case, but because shotguns shoot a bunch of pellets, you supposedly do not have to aim as much in order to make a hit.

* They are powerful. In close ranges, no one argues the relative effectiveness of a shot-gun blast.

* Shots are unlikely to over-penetrate. Depending on load. I agree with this, although I contend that it's not the only firearm that has a low likelihood of overpenetration.

Now, here's why I don't like shotguns:

* They have high felt-recoil. Depending on load, the kick can be mitigated, but most people are not used to high felt-recoil. This is one reason why, in practice, most people are not as effective as they believe they are.

* They are heavy and cumbersome. Sure, call me a wimp, but it's true: It's heavy enough to require two hands. To me, that's not ideal when you have to hold the phone to talk to the 911 dispatcher while trying to handle a firearm at the same time. Ever tried to hold a shotgun with one hand?

* They shoot an unpredictable spread. If you are the only person, this may not be a big deal, but in reality, many people have other family members in the house. Do you really want to risk having some of the pellets hit your family members by accident?

* Limited attachments. I'm no "gear queer" (I didn't invent this term), but I am big believer in having lights on your firearm. This in itself is a whole other can of worms, but take my word: Better to have it and not need it than to need it (and end up accidentally mistaking a family member for the perpetrator). For shotguns, rails for attachments are very uncommon.

* Limited range. Do you have a back yard? Is it possible that you may find yourself shooting outdoors? Shotguns are typically good for up to 50 yards. Some argue that's enough, but I personally don't see why anyone would want to settle.... (And no, please don't tell me you've got rifled slugs on your saddle you can change out. You may be trained, but most average people are not, and they won't appreciate the increased felt recoil. )

Now, here's what I do like:

* For novices, I highly recommend a .357 revolver loaded with .38 specials. If you shop around and insist on it, you can even find one that has a rail to attach a weapon light. The one example that comes to mind is the Smith & Wesson Shield Gun. Highly recommended. On the cheap, Ruger's .38 special revolver is also very good.

Let me add that I wouldn't feel bad about being a "novice". Revolvers are reliable, intuitive, and do not have magazine springs that will weaken. In fact, chances are good that if I were to go back to firearms, I'd also go with a revolver.

* For more advanced folks or folks who don't mind spending a little time and money, I recommend an AR rifle. Any decent upper and lower will do, but I recommend a flat top (I believe it's called an A3 and A4 upper). Mount it with a CQC type sight along with a Back Up Iron Sight (BUIS). Also, be sure to attach a light.

* If you insist on a shotgun, stick with a reputable brand, such as Remington and Mossberg. Please attach a light to it if you can. Pistol sights are also recommended. If you don't mind spending a pretty penny, Vang Comp's shotguns are highly recommend, and they come properly modified and ready to go. Load with bird shots.

Personally, I love ARs. Light recoil. Highly effective. Highly accurate. Low likelihood of over-penetration (using hollow-points will help I think). Plenty of after-market options for lights and sights. Light enough to be handled with one hand so you can use the other to talk to 911 dispatcher, hold your kid's hand and guide them to your designated safe room, or just just operate doors and lights or hold another flashlight so you don't have to muzzle sweep anything just to light things up. Flash suppressor barrel also recommended to redirect muzzle flash... but can't remember if this part is civvie-legal.... But I'm sure your local friendly gun dealer will know. Finally, I argue that they are just as effective in close range as a shotgun, and easily out-performs medium to long ranges (up to 400 yards), in case you find yourself shooting outdoors.

Errrr... maybe I shouldn't be saying all this.... If it causes a problem, I'll delete it later. Or feel free to delete it for me, Mods. Anyways, I recommend going to a local range, rent out these firearms, and give them a try. In the end, you want to stick with one that you are most comfortable with. Better to hit with a mouse gun than to miss with an elephant gun.

Oh, and yes, I recommend to sign up for a basic handgun safety course. If I was somehow made President of Earth tomorrow, I would make this a mandatory requirement for all gun owners. Mine costed only $50, and it was a fun way to spend a night. If you already know exactly what kind of gun you want, then you can go ahead and buy it, but if not, don't be afraid to hold that off and ask about it when you take your safety class. They'll help steer you in the right direction.

As always, this is just my $0.02 (though in the end, I think you'll find that I'm right about this).

[Broken Arrow]

I generally agree with DisneySteve. . .in the chance of an armed burglarly. . .reaching the gun may not happen in time and the advantage IMO is only slight (the intruder has the element of surprise and probably initiative on his side), if there is any advantage at all.

You bring up a very good point!

Just wanted to say that this is precisely why advance preparation and training is so important. Many people out there are under the false impression that if they simply have a gun around in the house, they are ready for anything. In practice, this isn't always true, and it's even more so when you have to worry about corralling the kids (if you have kids).

Not wanting to reveal exactly what it is that I have set up (sorry), but I have to brag that my response time is next to nothing, while most people typically take much longer. They have to go and unlock their gun from the safe or vault, then load up their magazing or tube (many don't have loaded guns for safety reasons and to avoid weakening the tube or magazine spring), rack, and then they are ready. And that's assuming that they're also close to it at the time to access the firearm. Oh, and don't forget contact 911 while you're doing all this.

I will say that the fastest response time solution for people who are not well-trained (that I currently know of) is a loaded revolver secured in a quick-access gun vault. Let me clarify that I am not advocating having a loaded firearm in the house, even if it's inside a gun vault. Just saying that that's the fastest response time solution I've seen for average people.

However, I highly recommend the above combination, and you can leave the box of ammo inside such a vault as well. That's what my old setup was like.

[zakity]

For novices, I highly recommend a .357 revolver loaded with .38 specials. If you shop around and insist on it, you can even find one that has a rail to attach a weapon light. The one example that comes to mind is the Smith & Wesson Shield Gun. Highly recommended. On the cheap, Ruger's .38 special revolver is also very good.

I am going to add to make sure they are hollowpoints. Hollowpoints will (in theory) stop at whatever they hit. There is less chance of missing the intended target and the round hitting a wall and continuing through and hurting someone else. Hollowpoints will hit the wall and stop.

[Broken Arrow]

I am going to add to make sure they are hollowpoints. Hollowpoints will (in theory) stop at whatever they hit. There is less chance of missing the intended target and the round hitting a wall and continuing through and hurting someone else. Hollowpoints will hit the wall and stop.

Yes I agree, although for revolvers, they typically come as semi-wadcutters, which basically works the same way as hollow points: Higher chance to mushroom, lower chance to over-penetrate. Thanks for pointing this out.

[zakity]

Sorry. I am not familiar with revolvers. I thought they all had hollowpoints. DH is the weapons specialist in the house. I am sort of dragged into it because I am married to him.

You know, it is amazing what you learn by osmosis.

[PrincessPerky]

While I personally have no real interest in a gun..too much work. I do like when others who are willing to put the work into a gun...I follow Heinlines theory..if more folk were worried about meeting deadly force, less would try to walk all over the average person.

[maat55]

We had a 100+ lb dobie that would like anyone who was in the house and LOVED to sit on people's lap. Thought she was a lap dog. But put someone outside the door and she'd be growling and ready to attack. Once when another dog lunged at me, she grabbed it and threw the thing (probably like 20-30 lb dog) up in the air. By the way my Dobie was leashed the other dog came charging.

So sure some dogs are good in the house, but they can bite. Any dog with teeth can bite, including my bichon frise (the younger has bitten someone).

As for guns, any gun can kill. It just depends on who owns it and how the use it.

I have to say maat, if you are for guns, why aren't you for credit cards? It's not the credit cards that create debt, it's people. And CC are just tools. Some people can obviously responsibly manage them, but others cannot.

So if you believe in yourself then shouldn't credit cards not be to blame but the person's themselves?

I'm afraid I will shoot myself in the foot with a CC, but not a gun.

I do have two CC's, one for my wife to buy only gas and one I use for my business that is only for gas.