Who's seeking refuge in Canada or abroad if Trump wins?

[tripods68]

Whatttt....This forum is more civilized than Trump!

[ua_guy]

LIke I said, arbitrary rankings by politically connected groups (Commonwealth Fund?) are meaningless, the US health care system is not perfect, cost is a huge issue, but I also think it's a misnomer to say it's "Free market" when if you were honest you'd admit that there is a huge amount of government already involved in our healthcare system (Medicare, Medicaid, numerous regulations, etc.)

I prefer to look at specific stats when dealing with healthcare. Survivability is a very important one despite what the NY TImes article mentions.

Personally I'd like to be alive.

To me it just seems like people consistently mention the negatives of our healthcare systems, and not the many positives.

I'd like to think we can put a little faith in what the World Health Organization says. They don't see our system in the top ranks, either.

You'd like to be alive--but of developed nations, the US has one of the shortest life expediencies!!

And yes, you hear about the negatives because we're not even in the top 10 despite some indicators that we SHOULD be (one of the wealthiest nations, highest per capita spending on healthcare, etc). You don't hear about the GOOD things, partially because it's EXPECTED that we have the best healthcare system in the world. When we're not, that's all you hear about.

You are correct though, we do have government involvement in our free market healthcare. What we do not have is universal health care--a term that should be used more widely and frequently than "socialized medicine".

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I'd like to think we can put a little faith in what the World Health Organization says. They don't see our system in the top ranks, either.

So if other systems are so great then, why are our people not flocking to these other nations?

You'd like to be alive--but of developed nations, the US has one of the shortest life expediencies!!

LIfe expectancy is not a good way to judge health care systems. Lots of reasons why people die before their time.

When we're not, that's all you hear about.

Yes because politicians, on both sides, love to manipulate statistics to suit their own ends.

You are correct though, we do have government involvement in our free market healthcare. What we do not have is universal health care--a term that should be used more widely and frequently than "socialized medicine".

In some senses we do have universal care, as it's illegal to refuse to treat someone in an emergency situation.

Another little-mentioned fact: The US has a very high personal satisfaction rate. People don't rate the health care system as being very high, but they rate their own experiences good at a rate second highest in the world:

[Singuy]

[QUOTE=Weird Tolkienish Figure;424218]
Another little-mentioned fact: The US has a very high personal satisfaction rate. People don't rate the health care system as being very high, but they rate their own experiences good at a rate second highest in the world:





I think you are reading this list incorrectly. The US is not #2 on this ranking list. We don't even crack the top 10 if you look at all the other numbers that are above 81%. Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, and Belgium blows the U.S out of the water with higher satisfaction scores AND much higher confidence in their healthcare system. It must be nice to spend 1/3 of what we spend and have such high scores huh.

Don't trust those "government involved" healthcare systems like Medicare and Medicaid. There are a LOT of free market influence in there under the table..or else why would Humana, a private insurance company, pay Humana salesman 200k/year in commissions trying to get people on Medicaid?

A complete overhaul is needed..none of this hybrid BS(Obamacare)...this hybrid healthcare system is nothing more than to put tax payer dollars into the hands of these private health insurance CEOs.

[ua_guy]

So if other systems are so great then, why are our people not flocking to these other nations?

It's because the US healthcare system isn't bad--IF you can afford it.

Otherwise, "medical tourism":

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/04/medical-tourism-health-tourism-medical-travel_n_1551217.html

LIfe expectancy is not a good way to judge health care systems. Lots of reasons why people die before their time.

Life expectancy is AN indicator, it doesn't tell all. It's an indicator that speaks to quality of life and healthy living. The number one cause of death in the United States is heart disease, which when related to obesity or unhealthy lifestyles, is totally preventable. Preventive medicine in this country isn't there yet, and a lot of it has to do with access to healthcare.

In some senses we do have universal care, as it's illegal to refuse to treat someone in an emergency situation.

EMTALA isn't universal healthcare, though. Hospitals are required to provide stabilizing care in emergent situations through this act.

You can't, for example, walk into an ER to have your teeth cleaned, or to get a yearly physical exam, or have a colonoscopy, or to address an issue you've been having with your knee.

Another little-mentioned fact: The US has a very high personal satisfaction rate. People don't rate the health care system as being very high, but they rate their own experiences good at a rate second highest in the world:

That's good to know. Satisfaction is also an indicator, and that gets at the fact that our healthcare system is good. What I find interesting is the disparity in patient satisfaction and their confidence in the US healthcare system. Good satisfaction, low confidence. I suspect some of that has to do with unstable/increasing costs.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

It's because the US healthcare system isn't bad--IF you can afford it.

Otherwise, "medical tourism":

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1551217.html

Yes but Americans aren't traveling in mass to these countries that supposedly have better health care systems, they're traveling to third world nations, probably for specific elective procedures.

Life expectancy is AN indicator, it doesn't tell all. It's an indicator that speaks to quality of life and healthy living. The number one cause of death in the United States is heart disease, which when related to obesity or unhealthy lifestyles, is totally preventable. Preventive medicine in this country isn't there yet, and a lot of it has to do with access to healthcare.

I'm pretty sure heart disease is the number one killer almost universally across the Western world.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Another view of American personal satisfaction rates. More middling, but not the terrible condition it's often portrayed as.

[ua_guy]

Yes but Americans aren't traveling in mass to these countries that supposedly have better health care systems, they're traveling to third world nations, probably for specific elective procedures.

I'm looking for a citation, but I think the obvious answer is that as a US citizen, you can't just land in the UK and expect them to take care of all your health needs. If you're talking about moving to these countries, immigration laws still apply, and for most people, moving outside the US isn't an affordable/feasible option, especially if they need care right now.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I'm looking for a citation, but I think the obvious answer is that as a US citizen, you can't just land in the UK and expect them to take care of all your health needs. If you're talking about moving to these countries, immigration laws still apply, and for most people, moving outside the US isn't an affordable/feasible option, especially if they need care right now.

UK is ranked #1 in that commonwealth study, in everything, which would make it seem like it's a health care paradise, but I've simply never heard of anyone going to the UK for their absolutely wonderful stupendous healthcare. My brother and his wife live in the UK, I've never heard them say anything about. I post on a sleep apnea group, and the people I heard there talking about the UK system aren't exactly praising it.

My view is that people often vote with their feet.

[pflyers85]

I'm not prepared to give up my US Citizenship no matter who is in the White House.

The President isn't a dictator, and at most they can hold office for 8 years.

I don't believe that I could duplicate the prosperity that I've enjoyed in the USA anywhere else in the world.

Contemplating renouncing one's citizenship because of who may get into office is irrational, short-sited, and pure paranoia.

Bingo! I'm sick of the crying by both sides. People need to stop with the "woe is me" attitude if their candidate doesn't get in office and blaming the person that does get in for all their troubles. Don't get me wrong I have my biases. I am very much a pro business, free market, less government voter that more often than not aligns with the GOP or Libertarian party. I didn't like the fact that Obama was elected to two terms but I will be damned if I would use that to make excuses for myself and act like my life is so much more difficult because he is President. I'm not going to sit around and wait for some new law or government program to come down from on high to make my life better. I am going to exercise my liberty to make my own choices to put myself in a better position to be successful. Sitting around and hoping the government will more meaningfully impact your life than you can do on you own is a waste of time.

[disneysteve]

I generally stay out of political conversations because, quite honestly, I couldn't care less. So let me just inject some humor into the conversation.

A few years ago, we were in D.C. on vacation. My daughter, who was maybe 14 or 15 at the time, bought a button at a gift shop that reads, "Vote for the millionaire liar of your choice." I thought that showed a remarkable grasp of our political structure for someone her age.

I've recently seen two memes on Facebook that pretty much sum up my feelings on the current election cycle.
1. A ballot with 3 choices to check off:
___ Republican Party
___ Democratic Party
_X_ Cocktail Party

2. If the Republicans win, I'm leaving the country.
If the Democrats win, I'm leaving the country.
I don't care about politics. I just want to travel.

[kork13]

If the Republicans win, I'm leaving the country.
If the Democrats win, I'm leaving the country.
I don't care about politics. I just want to travel.

HA! That I love!!

[ZachRosh23]

I honestly don't want Trump to win but I'm starting to realize that he probably will.

[JoeP]

I honestly don't want Trump to win but I'm starting to realize that he probably will.

Very doubtful. He looks to win the republican nomination, but I cannot see him ever becoming president; too many skeletons in the closet, and way too many sound bites to be used against him.

What puzzles me is the fervor his campaign is generating. I know some people hate everything Clinton, but to rally for *this* anti-candidate is a bit unsettling to me.

[ua_guy]

Bingo! I'm sick of the crying by both sides. People need to stop with the "woe is me" attitude if their candidate doesn't get in office and blaming the person that does get in for all their troubles. Don't get me wrong I have my biases. I am very much a pro business, free market, less government voter that more often than not aligns with the GOP or Libertarian party. I didn't like the fact that Obama was elected to two terms but I will be damned if I would use that to make excuses for myself and act like my life is so much more difficult because he is President. I'm not going to sit around and wait for some new law or government program to come down from on high to make my life better. I am going to exercise my liberty to make my own choices to put myself in a better position to be successful. Sitting around and hoping the government will more meaningfully impact your life than you can do on you own is a waste of time.

Your point is well taken, but you're probably forgetting there are some pretty smart people in the room who wouldn't renounce their citizenship just because their favorite candidate wasn't elected to office. The kind of people you're talking about are probably comparable to folks that somehow believe they'd become rich, if only their taxes were lower.

To elect Trump is reckless. He's unfit to run this country, period, end of story.

My sentiment is unchanging...if any candidate tries to reverse the progress we've made with gay rights and my own marriage...I'm gone. I can't support a country that does that and I don't want to be identified with that country, either. I think you'd feel the same way too.