My gun could have saved my husband

[zakity]

It just doesn't happen if you follow the four rules.

[GrimJack]

Don't any of those ccw armed carriers drink?
If all those bad guys are, right now, armed in all those bars, why doesn't that show up in statistics?
Just so you do not think I am a "left-wing, anti-gun liberal" - I am not anti-gun. I was born and raised in MT, I bought my first .22 at age 14, my first .3030 at 16, my b.i.l. gave me a .357 for Christmas in the '70s - I still have all 3 weapons. I hope to buy an M14 sometime cuz I liked using it when I was in the USMC.
I just worry about the 'an armed society is a polite society' meme - in an ideal world, it should not matter who is armed and who is not armed but I would be very uncomfortable in a bar filled with armed patrons and I do not see the need for a bar full of armed patrons. There is no need for that many drinkers with guns (I know that less than 10% would actually would be armed but you would have to assume that all were). Not every gun-owner is Lazarus Long

[Broken Arrow]

Ah, well, your previous question involved a hypothetical shootout situation (or so I thought), so I answered it that way.

But now you're talking about mixing alcohol and firearms right? Actually, I agree with you there. As I've stated earlier, I don't do things with a gun that I would not do with a car. Although I don't drink, IF I planned to, then I would put the gun away first.

The issue here is that the current wording of the law is so restrictive that it could be illegal even when you are not drinking and not even in the bar area of a family-friendly restaurant.

Ultimately, the discomfort that people feel about knowing there may be armed people in the midst are purely psychological. Overall, I don't think the problem lies with people who carries legally and discreetly. They're not going to hurt you, so why should you mind?

[GREENBACK]

The people I know that are ccw holders are, to a person, very responsible people and I know and encounter quite a few. I'm not the least concerned about them going into a place that serves alcohol with their weapon on them. I agree that alcohol and firearms don't go together anymore than alcohol and automobiles do. A person in a restaurant drinking a beer with his steak doesn't make me feel threatened.

Grimjack

Shootings at bars are not that uncommon. I don't know what stats you're looking at or for or if the FBI even compiles this information. I know from personal and professinal experience that hardened violent criminals don't go anywhere without their gun and it doesn't have to be some sleezy dive of a bar.

As for your politics, That's fine, I really try not to draw any conclusions about people online. Just discussing the topic.

[PetMom]

Has anyone actually fired a gun at a person in self defense or even attempted to shoot in self defense?

There are training videos showing police officers (correct me if I am wrong) where some are so adrenalin rushed they freak out - one case has a police officer throw his gun at the perp. The split second decisions, the actual firing and aiming for real at a lunging cranked up on crack nut with the strength of ten men in order to protect your life can be quite different than the relaxed atmosphere of shooting at your target practice bad guy.

One self defense expert claimed he would prefer pepper spray to use on several assailants at one time as opposed to being armed with a gun. But he did prefer a gun if a break in was occuring in his home.

Break in shootings tend to be the least troublesome as far as explaining when someone is shot entering the property in the chest with no business being there.

But any shooting even in self defense will be investigated by the police. People have been arrested and questioned and there are a few cases where some self defenders were charged (there even is a saying: judged by 12 or carried by 6).

In a bar with liquor being served that can be such a volatile combination with hot ready to fight tempers. Their parking lots can be even worse.

I do have and believe in the having all sorts of stuff in the home for any riots or overflowing into US drugwars, escapees on the loose in the neighborhood.

For me it is more like what is the situation I am going to be in.

I would prefer nowadays the legal pepper spray, taser, taser gun and using the best asset: keeping away from troublesome situations, areas, known bad parts of town at night, etc (although this is not always doable). And of course that cell phone which might not work. But trouble has a way of finding some people so they do need some form of defense.
And yes, most defintely the criminals all are well armed.

Also, Broken Arrow I had thought you had posted some interesting posts before referring to defense forums where people were told they may not need a gun - I thought I read that.

[Broken Arrow]

There are training videos showing police officers (correct me if I am wrong) where some are so adrenalin rushed they freak out - one case has a police officer throw his gun at the perp.

Yes, it's typically known as an "adrenaline dump". This is major component of realistic self-defense training, which is beyond basic safety training.

Has anyone actually fired a gun at a person in self defense or even attempted to shoot in self defense?

Well, I've came close... got all the way to the part where I was about to squeeze the trigger, but I guess at that split moment, he decided to turn and run instead of keep coming at me. I was most definitely experiencing an adrenaline dump. Reflexes took over.

One self defense expert claimed he would prefer pepper spray to use on several assailants at one time as opposed to being armed with a gun.

I believe everything has its pros and cons, and the pepper spray is no different. Even pepper spray requires training, because it can actually backfire and end up very badly. (I am also an advocate of pepper spray by the way.)

Also, Broken Arrow I had thought you had posted some interesting posts before referring to defense forums where people were told they may not need a gun - I thought I read that.

Well, yes, I've done that before. But my stance is simply that a gun is not appropriate for all situations (although that is not to say that it isn't appropriate for some). The answer then is to carry more than just a gun. Layer your defense. Bring a tool box, not just a hammer.

Um, this thread is getting way more out of hand than I anticipated. My apologies if any of this off-topic stuff here is irking people.

[PetMom]

No way you don't ever offend anyone - you are always very diplomatic and I love reading your good opinions you have to offer on topics covered on this forum.

I do know this can be a hot topic especially lately, but if people can remain calm and cool (yes even on a forum thread) we can learn and make decisions about self defense before we are in the actual situation. Make informed decisions. Know what to do with what you have in different situations.

I had heard of the adrenalin thing now I can more carefully research that and figure out how that would apply for a defense situation.

Actually I was quite relieved and impressed that some defense forums are giving non gun defense options and as you so aptly put it the layering of defense. I have been privy to a very few cases at our office where the defense defense did have to be proved, so I was more making people aware of that angle of this whole issue. I have read a defense book where they make people aware of this also.

RedThunderBird that perspective on what rights others in other countries have for carrying weapons is really something I was not aware of. That does put into perspective how good we have it here.

Not to inflame any flaming volatile issue: I am not for gun control and never have been - just my opinion there - hope my comment was not giving the wrong opinion on that.

Great thread - and I do not want to get anyone riled up.

[GREENBACK]

Has anyone actually fired a gun at a person in self defense or even attempted to shoot in self defense?

There are training videos showing police officers (correct me if I am wrong) where some are so adrenalin rushed they freak out - one case has a police officer throw his gun at the perp. The split second decisions, the actual firing and aiming for real at a lunging cranked up on crack nut with the strength of ten men in order to protect your life can be quite different than the relaxed atmosphere of shooting at your target practice bad guy.

For the first part of your question; I'm not sure anyone who has would talk about it here. I won't. It's like asking someone to talk online about being raped.

There is no training in the world that prepares you for the real thing, believe me. It doesn't come close. Training is as close as we come though The only way to know is to experience the real thing and that is what you're trying to avoid. If you make a conscious decision to carry a firearm you are calculating that you will have the ability to use it when neccesary. This is a question for the person in the mirror.

[Broken Arrow]

For the first part of your question; I'm not sure anyone who has would talk about it here. I won't. It's like asking someone to talk online about being raped.

Hehe, well, I stated mine, but admittedly, it wasn't an actual shooting incident. Had it been, I realize things would have been very different.

Even then, I admit I was a bit uncomfortable just stating it because there are people who will never quite understand. And they are likely to judge you on how poorly you've acted, armchair about how it would have been so easy to do it better, and perhaps even use your experiences as an example as to why guns are flawed somehow....

But they're not there. Heck, except for whatever few tussles that comes my way, I'm not there either.

There is no training in the world that prepares you for the real thing, believe me. It doesn't come close. Training is as close as we come though The only way to know is to experience the real thing and that is what you're trying to avoid. If you make a conscious decision to carry a firearm you are calculating that you will have the ability to use it when neccesary. This is a question for the person in the mirror.

Well, I think I understand what you're saying, but for those who may get confused by it, once the adrenaline dump occurs, the only thing you have left from freezing or freaking out is whatever gross motor skills that we have trained into reflex. So, quality training is indeed necessary, even if it's not the same as being in the real thing.

But yes, in the end, to even decide whether one has the mental fortitude to even carry a gun is a question for the person in the mirror. Fortunately, not everyone has to carry in a civilized society. All that is required is for some of us that will, for the rest to allow us to do so, and for the bad guys to not know who is who.

[GREENBACK]

Well, I think I understand what you're saying, but for those who may get confused by it, once the adrenaline dump occurs, the only thing you have left from freezing or freaking out is whatever gross motor skills that we have trained into reflex. So, quality training is indeed necessary, even if it's not the same as being in the real thing.

This is the weird part. What you did last time may not be what you do next time. our primal instincts determine "fight or flight" and can also tell much about the attacker. I agree 100% on the training part because it does emphasize using gross motor skills, which is all most are gonna be capable of and that won't be easy if you've never had the experience before. Things as natural as breathing(literally) go out the window.

[biff]

Pro gun here. Living in VA and working in DC taught me something important. If you check the crime stats between the two places. The crime in N Virginia vs DC....the crime rate is 100 worse in dc. And the concealed carry permits are only for LEO (police) only. Dc has strict gun laws...But the bad guys have guns!
Va is pro gun and give out ccws like nothing and the crime is much much lower....kinda ironic...hmmmmmmmm

[nick__45]

What's a definition of registered gun holder that this article is referring to? I thought TN is a common sense state.

As far as personal finance is concern, guns can be used as investment because money spent on guns wisely is money not spent of junk.

[nick__45]

Pro gun here. Living in VA and working in DC taught me something important. If you check the crime stats between the two places. The crime in N Virginia vs DC....the crime rate is 100 worse in dc. And the concealed carry permits are only for LEO (police) only. Dc has strict gun laws...But the bad guys have guns!
Va is pro gun and give out ccws like nothing and the crime is much much lower....kinda ironic...hmmmmmmmm

Same here. DC is gun free zone and yet is very bad. Parts of DC is less safe than Iraq, Liberia, Afghanistan, Mexico, and other places we call cesspools.

It is funny that states that are anti-gun usually are the one benefiting the most from gun production. Most guns in the U.S. are manufactured in anti-gun states such as Maryland, Massachusetts, Illinois, Delaware, New Jersey, and many others.

[nick__45]

So, you want to tell the good guys from the bad guys, make open carry legal everywhere. You will know who they are and you know that they are armed. Bad guys don't carry openly. They want to hide it. They don't want you to know that they are armed until they pull it out.

+1. Make it legal for all Americans to open carry almost anywhere except for a few places the Oval Office or some court places. But make sure the guns are traceable to the owners and require that stolen guns reported right away. I am not talking registration but rather but database where sell records are kept. When private takes place, the burden is on the seller and buyer to keep their own record or have an update in the national database. It is similar to the laws they have now but we just don't need to silly background check and the buy permit some states have.

Treat guns like we treat cars, which everyone has the right to own and punish those who abuse their right. Everyone has a right to own a car but driving is a privilege. So make gun ownership a right but if the owner abuse such right, he can't carry outside of his house the same way DUI people can't drive their car. But in the case of emergency, DUI people have the right to use their car to get to safety as gun owners, who lost their privilege to carry, have a right to use their guns for security. Of course, that would solve crime and the sheep dogs will loose their job since they can't 'protect' us anymore.

[nick__45]

Zakity,

Open carry being legal everywhere would be the equivalent of the old west. From the history books with that, it sure seems like both the good and the bad guys carried openly. Bad guys aren't going to walk around with a sawed off shotgun or an uzi in public because that's just asking to get arrested. If it was legal and commonplace, do you really think they wouldn't do it?

Greenback,

The military operates with the same principle, only calling it rules of engagement and use of force as opposed to "force continuum". The point I was trying to make is that people need to understand this concept and do what they can to abide by it. I may have chosen a poor example in the case of someone using a throwing knife at 21 feet. People need to be responsible to use lethal force as a last resort, and if they can resolve a situation with less than lethal means, it's for the best.

Are you talking about the actual old west or the Hollywood's rendition of it?

Do you know anyone who follow the U.S. rule of engagement in actual practice and get to live and talk about it? Not many I would say. The only time we may follow such rule is when they outnumbered the enemy 30 to one and they have air support. Normally, casualty rate is also against them as they'll run back and forth playing soldering and get wounded before being able to take the one enemy combatant out. Actual rule of engagement doesn't apply to enemy camps or strongholds as those place get flatten before they know what hit them.

Do you know what the rule of engagement for cops in public shooting? Sit and wait while looking all tactical during the massacre.