Stimulus package??

[adam_c]

GrimJack

No, All political policies enforce some form of redistribution; taxation is one form, investing is another form, putting a gun to someones head is another; Bernie Madoff used a different form. Transfer of wealth is just transfer of wealth which is to say redistribution is transfer of wealth.

I’m puzzled about this one. I believe we are mixing several different words and meanings here. If I invest money in a stock, I’ve received a portion of ownership whose value is equivalent to the dollars that I’ve exchanged. That value may go up or down, but at the time of the transaction, I’ve exchanged equal for equal. There is no redistribution or transfer of my wealth. I’ve simply swapped one item of value (my dollar) for something that I consider to be equal value (one stock). What political policy forces me to do so?

If I pay taxes and the government gives that money to another individual, how is that redistribution of my wealth to another individual in any way similar to investing?

I noticed that you used a pejorative for taxation - that might be for a different discussion (or at least not this post) so I will leave it.

No, don’t leave it. I’ll make it very clear. Taxation is forced confiscation of the property of the individual by the only entity that can do so without criminal prosecution. We live in a representative republic and I accept that those 535 individuals collectively represent the will of the people. But I also understand this:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship." Professor Alexander Tytler.

Okay, you are far right, I am far left and President Obama is center left.

That is not an acceptable response for a couple of reasons. First, you offered no definition. Second, if you have determined from a few posts in a chat room that I am “far right”, then we really will have a lot of trouble developing any sort of serious debate here.
Third, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings.


Okay, since this is a finance forum; based on what you've seen, heard, or read, what successes do you see coming out of this bill? Do you feel that you will personally benefit either professionally or socially from this bill?

[GrimJack]

I hear a vague tap tap tapping in the back ground but when I look no one is there.

This message is hidden because GREENBACK is on your ignore list.

[adam_c]

Social Security is one of the most successful programs this country has ever run (along with the interstate highway system)

I might agree with you on this one. Social Security is one of the most successful programs, which demonstrates what an abject failure the federal government is at running financial programs.

the old have an income that they earned and that no one can take away from them.

Which is ironic considering it was taken away from them during the heart of their productive years, only to be returned at a sub-standard rate of return at the end of their life. Just imagine how much opportunity has been lost by the government seizing money from the paychecks of the elderly for 40+ working years. Imagine what they could have accomplished with that money. Or at least had the opportunity.

Food stamps is another successful program, children do not starve and healthy children grow up to be contributing members of society. Where is the problem with that? These programs ARE the American Way - they do not show its failure but its success.

I'm trying to think of the number of people I've met that credit food stamps for being the secret behind their success in life. I'll get back to you on that one.

Now I'm trying to think of the number of people who have told me that they would lose money if they try to go out and get a job because they lose the food stamps and welfare checks. I can provide names for people in this group if you need me to.


The problem with that, is that they create dependency and they crush the human desire to be self fulfilling. Remember Maslow's Hierarchy of needs? Self esteem, confidence, and respect are absolutely necessary to reach any level of self actualization.

My aunt told me that it wasn't worth her time to go out and get a job because she would make more money staying on welfare and having another kid. That is a person who is beat down. She wasn't beat down by her neighbors, or the people on the other side of the tracks. She was beat down by her own actions and a government that says, "We'll give you a minimal sustenance as long as you don't make more than minimum wage. Oh, and vote early and vote often."

[GrimJack]

I’m puzzled about this one. I believe we are mixing several different words and meanings here. If I invest money in a stock, I’ve received a portion of ownership whose value is equivalent to the dollars that I’ve exchanged. That value may go up or down, but at the time of the transaction, I’ve exchanged equal for equal. There is no redistribution or transfer of my wealth. I’ve simply swapped one item of value (my dollar) for something that I consider to be equal value (one stock). What political policy forces me to do so?

You have taken part in an exchange of equivalent values in expectation that at a later date you will take part in an exchange of equivalent values that will result in a redistribution of wealth in your favor. If this is not the case, why are you investing?

If I pay taxes and the government gives that money to another individual, how is that redistribution of my wealth to another individual in any way similar to investing?

because this is how it works - locally, the city pays for cops, teachers, construction workers and so on; this happens at the state level also; this happens at the national level also. If you do not like the way the government uses your taxes, vote or leave but don't whine to me about how terrible life is in the United States of America. Not all redistribution is forced. There is nothing in any of my statements that requires force. Now you ask how taxation and investing are the same thing - they are not the same thing, they are similar things and the similarity is the transfer of wealth/redistribution.

No, don’t leave it. I’ll make it very clear. Taxation is forced confiscation of the property of the individual by the only entity that can do so without criminal prosecution. We live in a representative republic and I accept that those 535 individuals collectively represent the will of the people.

I am going to quote one of the stupidest bumperstickers of the whole Vietnam Era thing:

America: love it or leave it

But I also understand this:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship." Professor Alexander Tytler.

I just love that quote - it is 'apocryphal'. So I imagine you believe that quote but I believe it is cow pucky and not much for support.

That is not an acceptable response for a couple of reasons. First, you offered no definition.

I am sorry that you did not understand the joke, I will explain it if you insisit.

Second, if you have determined from a few posts in a chat room that I am “far right”, then we really will have a lot of trouble developing any sort of serious debate here.

Do you know the definition of a 'line' (Definition: A geometrical object that is straight, infinitely long and infinitely thin. )

Third, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings.

So he was voted the most liberal Senator -- is he to your left on that 'line'? He is to my right on that line.

Okay, since this is a finance forum; based on what you've seen, heard, or read, what successes do you see coming out of this bill?

What I see coming out of this bill is jobs.

Do you feel that you will personally benefit either professionally or socially from this bill?

I will benefit directly from this bill.

As a quick side note

Private sector jobs fell 697,000 in the U.S. in February, according to a national employment report published Wednesday by payroll giant Automatic Data Processing Inc. and consultancy Macroeconomic Advisers.

That's higher than the 630,000 loss forecast in a Dow Jones Newswires survey, and would be the largest number of jobs lost in one month during this recession. The figure for January was revised to show 614,000 jobs lost, compared with the initial figure of 522,000.

This is a decline that started years ago.

[cptacek]

This law was touted as an economic stimulus package. So, I would like to know, how do the following provide economic stimulus? (The M means million, B means billion)

$500M for WIC programs
$150M for food banks
$19.991B for food stamps
$1B for the census
$650M for set top boxes for digital conversion
$6M to oversee Commerce Department spending
$100M for victim compensation programs
$50M to identify sites to store carbon dioxide
$80M to IRS to provide health coverage to workers laid off because of outsourcing overseas
$1B for explosive detection systems for airports
$100M for extra emergency food and shelter funding for homeless
$15M for wildland fire management
$280M for wildlife refuge and fish hatchery construction, deferred maintenance, road maintenance and energy efficient visitors centers
$15M for preservation grants for historically black colleges and universities
$490M for repair of schools, detention centers, roads, bridges, housing, irrigation and dams on Indian reservations
$600M for cleanup of hazardous and toxic waste sites
$200M for cleanup of petroleum leaks from underground storage tanks
$650M for renovation of forest roads, bridges and trails, remediation of abandoned mines, removal of barriers to fish and other critical habitat
$25M for Smithsonian Institution
$1B for Head Start for preschoolers
$1.1B for "Early" Head Start for infants
$100M for grants for elderly nutrition services including Meals on Wheels
$13B for 'Title I' education programs for disadvantaged children
$650M for school computer and science laboratories and technology training for teachers
$70M for services to homeless children including meals and transportation
$12.2B for special education programs
$140M for independent living centers and services for elderly blind people
$17.114B for increase of Pell Grant
$60M for college's student aid funds
$200M for college work study programs
$250M for grants for states to create systems tracking individual student data
$160M for AmeriCorp volunteer programs
$40M for National Service Trust volunteer programs
$500M for construction of new National Computer Center for Social Security Administration
$500M for extra money for Social Security Administration to process disability and retirement claim backlogs
$80M for Army child development centers
$100M for Army "warrior transition complexes"
$100M for Navy and Marine Corps troop housing
$80M for Navy and Marine Corps child development centers
$100M for Air Force troop housing
$80M for Air Force child development centers
$50M for National Cemetery renovations and repairs
$290M for creation of information management backup facility for State Department, funding for participation in cybersecurity program
$510M for grants to rehabilitate and improve energy efficiency on Native American housing programs
$1.5B for short-term help with rent and housing relocation for homeless families
$100M for removing lead-based paint in low-income housing

Source: What's in the Stimulus Bill - A Breakdown - The Wall Street Journal Online

I tried to really think (albeit quickly) about if the above things would stimulate the economy. There are a LOT of other things shown in that document that I could also point out, but the above ones jumped out at me immediately as not stimulative.

I am not saying these things should or should not be funded (I would lean towards not for most if not all of them, but that is not the question). But, I think that these things should have gone through the regular budget process and not this "economic stimulus plan".

[GrimJack]

This law was touted as an economic stimulus package. So, I would like to know, how do the following provide economic stimulus? (The M means million, B means billion)

$500M for WIC programs

you prefer children to starve? - this goes to states

$150M for food banks

You would prefer that people starve?

$19.991B for food stamps

ditto

*snip*

Source: What's in the Stimulus Bill - A Breakdown - The Wall Street Journal Online

I tried to really think (albeit quickly) about if the above things would stimulate the economy. There are a LOT of other things shown in that document that I could also point out, but the above ones jumped out at me immediately as not stimulative.

I am not saying these things should or should not be funded (I would lean towards not for most if not all of them, but that is not the question). But, I think that these things should have gone through the regular budget process and not this "economic stimulus plan".

I imagine I could make a comment next to each line item but I know that it would be a useless exercise because I do not understand your position. It is almost as if you think that each one of those amounts will disappear never to be seen again. What is it that you think will happen to the money? I am not even going to argue whether or not they belong in there; how is it that they are not stimulative?

[GREENBACK]

Grimjack

He's ignoring me because he cannot respond to what I asked him to respond to.
He has not told me or anyone else how this stimulus package will benefit the country. Unfortunately, he has chosen to just ignore me instead of defending what he's saying. That is a fairly typical liberal response( or lack of). I have nothing against those with a liberal point of view but don't hide from your stated viewpoints as he has done.

[GREENBACK]

I hear a vague tap tap tapping in the back ground but when I look no one is there.

This message is hidden because GREENBACK is on your ignore list.

Grimjack....Hello

He's ignoring me because he cannot respond to what I asked him to respond to.
He has not told me or anyone else how this stimulus package will benefit the country. Unfortunately, he has chosen to just ignore me instead of defending what he's saying. That is a fairly typical liberal response( or lack of). I have nothing against those with a liberal point of view but don't hide from your stated viewpoints as he has done.

[GrimJack]

I might agree with you on this one. Social Security is one of the most successful programs, which demonstrates what an abject failure the federal government is at running financial programs.

Cow pucky - tell me how SS is a failure; tell me me how our federal government is a failure.

Which is ironic considering it was taken away from them during the heart of their productive years, only to be returned at a sub-standard rate of return at the end of their life. Just imagine how much opportunity has been lost by the government seizing money from the paychecks of the elderly for 40+ working years. Imagine what they could have accomplished with that money. Or at least had the opportunity.

Well, well, well - why don't you tell me what good rate of return is? Why don't you tell me about the wonderful retirement they would have with all their money invested in the stock market this year? At least this year the retirees will have an income with social security.

I'm trying to think of the number of people I've met that credit food stamps for being the secret behind their success in life. I'll get back to you on that one.

Don't bother, this is the comment of a twit and not worth any thought.

Now I'm trying to think of the number of people who have told me that they would lose money if they try to go out and get a job because they lose the food stamps and welfare checks. I can provide names for people in this group if you need me to.

Yes, I need the list but I am afraid you can't provide one. This is just repeating a stereotype that has no basis in reality. No one lives comfortably on welfare.

The problem with that, is that they create dependency and they crush the human desire to be self fulfilling.

More cow pucky

Remember Maslow's Hierarchy of needs? Self esteem, confidence, and respect are absolutely necessary to reach any level of self actualization.

Yes, I am familiar with Maslow - I have stood on the shoulder of Mount Rainier at 2:00 in the morning (if you do not understand these 2 statements, try reading Maslow again); I sat on a log with a good friend drinking whiskey watching the sun set on the Pacific; I lived on welfare during a very hard time. You got a problem with that?

My aunt told me that it wasn't worth her time to go out and get a job because she would make more money staying on welfare and having another kid. That is a person who is beat down. She wasn't beat down by her neighbors, or the people on the other side of the tracks. She was beat down by her own actions and a government that says, "We'll give you a minimal sustenance as long as you don't make more than minimum wage. Oh, and vote early and vote often."

I am sorry about your aunt but there are failures in all systems; I hope she gets better. The rest is just cow pucky.

[GrimJack]

Grimjack,

In the previous thread we agreed that money for smoking cessation and tobacco prevention education was in the bill. That is a classical example of pork. How does that stimulate the economy?

Why should the government take my money and money from other workers at gunpoint in order to help someone else stop smoking? It is not the government's job to help anyone stop smoking.

Make no mistake about it, all taxes are taken at gunpoint....just not directly. Don't believe me, don't pay any income tax for a few years. What would happen if you did that? People with guns (law enforcement) would come and arrest you.

Nope, we did not agree that there was money in the bill for smoking cessation and tobacco prevention; please go back and read my post again. No one is taking money from you at gun point; no one forces you to pay taxes. You have plenty of options if you do not want to pay taxes; it is just that you do not get any of the benefits that the taxes supply (although one of the options does include going to jail and jails are tax-supported). I have a friend who has never paid taxes; he lives a pretty nervous life (let me re-think that..... hmm, I actually do not know if he has never paid taxes, now that I think about it all I know is that he has never filed a 1040 -- this is a pretty personal thing so I did not really want to know the details). If you work in the United States, you consume most of what the taxes go for, fire, police, roads, schools, hospitals, highways, protection, water, phone (though much of that has been reduced), all sorts of infrastructure.

You do not get to choose which of the services you pay for and which you do not. It is an all or nothing deal; Yep, you can move out into the wilderness, heck we will even let you take an axe, knife and gun but otherwise quitcherbitchen change what you don't like or what you can but as long as you live in the United States of America, you are bound by the contract everyone else is.

[adam_c]

Cow pucky - tell me how SS is a failure; tell me me how our federal government is a failure.

Social Security is a failure because it is a ponzi scheme. The folks on social security today are not reaping the rewards of their life long investment into the system. That money got spent years ago. The are reaping the benefit of current taxation. With life expectancy and cost of living increasing, it takes more and more tax payers at the base to pay benefits to the receivers. Today's tax payers will never see a dime of the money they are paying in. It's a tax. Plain and simple.

Well, well, well - why don't you tell me what good rate of return is? Why don't you tell me about the wonderful retirement they would have with all their money invested in the stock market this year? At least this year the retirees will have an income with social security.

Which demonstrates to me that your outlook is very short sighted. After all the money the government has confiscated through the social security tax over the years, you can only point to what is happening in the last six months.

Don't bother, this is the comment of a twit and not worth any thought.Yes, I need the list but I am afraid you can't provide one. This is just repeating a stereotype that has no basis in reality. No one lives comfortably on welfare.

Let me tell you a little story. I grew up in a midwest town of 500 people. My father and mother were sophmores in high school when they married. (My brother was, ahem, a few months premature). My father dropped out of high school and went to work. By the time he was 21, they were divorced and he was a single of father of two boys, ages 3 and 4.

My father never took a dime of government money while raising on his own without a high school diploma.

Now the rest of his family....most of them have a criminal record. Nearly ALL of them have spent at least some portion of their life on public assistance. Now their children (my generation) are following in their footsteps. I've listened to my uncle rail against the child tax credit because he wouldn't get any of it. The SOB gets $5k, of someone else's money, a year in EITC, and the only thing he's ever been successful at is making babies.

I'm 31 years old with a wonderful wife and family. We have no debts but our mortgage. I have an excellent job that provides for my family. My brother is a tech Sargent in the Air Force.

See, you don't get to tell me that it is all a stereotype. I've been there. I've watched government intervention destroy the human spirit of my family members. I don't know your background, but I'll put my story up against yours any day. This stuff is real to me.

[GREENBACK]

Social Security is a failure because it is a ponzi scheme. The folks on social security today are not reaping the rewards of their life long investment into the system. That money got spent years ago. The are reaping the benefit of current taxation. With life expectancy and cost of living increasing, it takes more and more tax payers at the base to pay benefits to the receivers. Today's tax payers will never see a dime of the money they are paying in. It's a tax. Plain and simple.



Which demonstrates to me that your outlook is very short sighted. After all the money the government has confiscated through the social security tax over the years, you can only point to what is happening in the last six months.




Let me tell you a little story. I grew up in a midwest town of 500 people. My father and mother were sophmores in high school when they married. (My brother was, ahem, a few months premature). My father dropped out of high school and went to work. By the time he was 21, they were divorced and he was a single of father of two boys, ages 3 and 4.

My father never took a dime of government money while raising on his own without a high school diploma.

Now the rest of his family....most of them have a criminal record. Nearly ALL of them have spent at least some portion of their life on public assistance. Now their children (my generation) are following in their footsteps. I've listened to my uncle rail against the child tax credit because he wouldn't get any of it. The SOB gets $5k, of someone else's money, a year in EITC, and the only thing he's ever been successful at is making babies.

I'm 31 years old with a wonderful wife and family. We have no debts but our mortgage. I have an excellent job that provides for my family. My brother is a tech Sargent in the Air Force.

See, you don't get to tell me that it is all a stereotype. I've been there. I've watched government intervention destroy the human spirit of my family members. I don't know your background, but I'll put my story up against yours any day. This stuff is real to me.

Careful, you'll frustrate him with logic and you'll be on his ignore list too.

[jIM_Ohio]

This law was touted as an economic stimulus package. So, I would like to know, how do the following provide economic stimulus? (The M means million, B means billion)

$500M for WIC programs
$150M for food banks
$19.991B for food stamps
$1B for the census
$650M for set top boxes for digital conversion
$6M to oversee Commerce Department spending
$100M for victim compensation programs
$50M to identify sites to store carbon dioxide
$80M to IRS to provide health coverage to workers laid off because of outsourcing overseas
$1B for explosive detection systems for airports
$100M for extra emergency food and shelter funding for homeless
$15M for wildland fire management
$280M for wildlife refuge and fish hatchery construction, deferred maintenance, road maintenance and energy efficient visitors centers
$15M for preservation grants for historically black colleges and universities
$490M for repair of schools, detention centers, roads, bridges, housing, irrigation and dams on Indian reservations
$600M for cleanup of hazardous and toxic waste sites
$200M for cleanup of petroleum leaks from underground storage tanks
$650M for renovation of forest roads, bridges and trails, remediation of abandoned mines, removal of barriers to fish and other critical habitat
$25M for Smithsonian Institution
$1B for Head Start for preschoolers
$1.1B for "Early" Head Start for infants
$100M for grants for elderly nutrition services including Meals on Wheels
$13B for 'Title I' education programs for disadvantaged children
$650M for school computer and science laboratories and technology training for teachers
$70M for services to homeless children including meals and transportation
$12.2B for special education programs
$140M for independent living centers and services for elderly blind people
$17.114B for increase of Pell Grant
$60M for college's student aid funds
$200M for college work study programs
$250M for grants for states to create systems tracking individual student data
$160M for AmeriCorp volunteer programs
$40M for National Service Trust volunteer programs
$500M for construction of new National Computer Center for Social Security Administration
$500M for extra money for Social Security Administration to process disability and retirement claim backlogs
$80M for Army child development centers
$100M for Army "warrior transition complexes"
$100M for Navy and Marine Corps troop housing
$80M for Navy and Marine Corps child development centers
$100M for Air Force troop housing
$80M for Air Force child development centers
$50M for National Cemetery renovations and repairs
$290M for creation of information management backup facility for State Department, funding for participation in cybersecurity program
$510M for grants to rehabilitate and improve energy efficiency on Native American housing programs
$1.5B for short-term help with rent and housing relocation for homeless families
$100M for removing lead-based paint in low-income housing

Source: What's in the Stimulus Bill - A Breakdown - The Wall Street Journal Online

I tried to really think (albeit quickly) about if the above things would stimulate the economy. There are a LOT of other things shown in that document that I could also point out, but the above ones jumped out at me immediately as not stimulative.

I am not saying these things should or should not be funded (I would lean towards not for most if not all of them, but that is not the question). But, I think that these things should have gone through the regular budget process and not this "economic stimulus plan".

good post, thank you

[sweeps]

How do those things NOT provide stimulus? Let's just take one at random:
$490M for repair of schools, detention centers, roads, bridges, housing, irrigation and dams on Indian reservations

You have to hire construction people to work on these projects, right? And construction equipment will likely need to be purchased to perform these repairs. And a lot of raw materials will need to be purchased. And architects and surveyors and lawyers and accountants and lots of other people will need to be hired. And all these people who just got new work (and their families) will spend their new income on other things like food and DVD players and education and books and clothes. And.......

As far as food stamps is concerned, that's money that's going to be spent IMMEDIATELY.

I am against spending money on this laundry list of items too, but saying they wouldn't provide stimulus? Come on.

[cptacek]

No I do not want babies to starve (or older people either), but that should not be in a stimulative package. That should be in the boring old budget.